'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bebro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:19 am

Re guards, I still hope we get a little change on this spec which makes it slightly more "accessible".

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by WarHomer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:05 am

bebro wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:19 am
Re guards, I still hope we get a little change on this spec which makes it slightly more "accessible".
I like the idea that only high exp units can attain this badge of honor, but don´t use it because the guards are weaker than marines.

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by WarHomer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:08 am

bru888 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:53 pm
You know, I'm sad about Red Star and OOB in general for two reasons. One is, my lack of resources that began with Summa 40 caught up with me in Smolensk, so I resorted to cheating with #warbonds. That immediately took me out of the position of being able to honestly report my results here, so I have stopped. At about the same time, I "crossed the Rubicon" with the Unreliable trait (quoting my recent thread) and that does the same thing only in general. With that change, I am not playing the same game as the rest of you guys.

So I will not be posting Victory and Defeat notices in this type of thread any more because it will be like comparing apples and oranges. Still, I will stick with my decision about the Unreliable trait and I will cheat once in a while if I really don't feel like playing this or that scenario again. I just will not be publishing results because, who knows, maybe the whole thing did hinge upon having access to reliable vehicles that other players do not.

This doesn't mean that I will not insert a comment here or there in this type of thread and it certainly doesn't mean that I am not enjoying Red Star. Far from it.
I never use warbonds or other cheats, but I also never buy units with the unreliable trait and I am managing just fine (on highest diff). I do lament that the trait is there - at least in its very current severe form - as I would like to use all units available.

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:15 am

bebro wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:19 am
Re guards, I still hope we get a little change on this spec which makes it slightly more "accessible".
The spec is good as it is, but the unit itself (Guards '41 - '45) should have better stats. Like noted By WarHomer and others, the "Marines" (should be Naval Infantry - please correct the name) are now better.

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:42 pm

Rostov is firmly back again in Red Army hands and I can move on to Moscov.
See my deployment pattern below.
The challenge in this mission is to not overcommit your forces to the very large northern front and instead focus your best units near Rostov to first retake it and then push towards the three closest secondary
objectives.
The AI regularly makes the mistake to advance its tanks too deep into your territory in the north - so cut them off and defeat them when they are unsupplied. Focus on the river line here.
MVPs once again are your Bofors AA to take on the 109s and a lot fighters near Rostov. 2 Sturmoviks help in the north, where the Luftwaffe has no real presence.
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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bru888 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:55 pm

I'll take this scenario win and I post it here for satisfaction's sake, but I will not share the campaign victory because I cheated at Smolensk with #warbonds. :wink:

I can share the victory at Moscow because I did return the Unreliable trait to my game before I began the scenario (it probably made no difference at this stage, but there it is). A satisfying win, as I mentioned, and not too far from total because I was closing in on the secondary objectives at the end.

In general terms, I stood firm against the northern German attack but retreated from their southern advance all the way to the river that runs through Podolsk (it's not labeled, but Google Maps says its the Reka Pakhra). Weak units were left behind to be sacrificed in order to gain time. I weep for all of those brave comrades! :cry:

[Eh, they were expendable. :roll: ]

When the Germans approached Podolsk, they did so in an uncoordinated manner which left them vulnerable to counterstrikes on individual units. This wore down their strength to the point where I could begin pushing them back. The rest is history. Really is history, I guess.

This campaign led to a new-found admiration for certain units that I tended to under-utilize before: artillery, strategic bombers, and AA-guns. The latter gave me the most gratification because I was able to achieve the "Destroy 5 aircraft" mission . . . without fighters! Yes, I stacked up on the bombers and dismissed the fighters out-of-hand (I really do hope that the Soviets have better fighter aircraft in Red Star, Part 2). Instead, I purchased a couple of 85mm AA guns, with transport of course, and two GAZ 25mm vehicles. It was these that shot down the 5 Luftwaffe planes:

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Red Star was fun, challenging, interesting (I always enjoy popup events), and well put together. Kudos to the designer.

The campaign was particularly remarkable in one aspect: I don't recall ever seeing a DLC or custom campaign in which the player faces four major enemies. Now, when I say "major," I mean primary foes, not necessarily world powers with all due respect to the Finns and Poles. But yes, we started off battling Japan, then Poland, then Finland, and finally, Germany. I can say from experience that the player had better not waste too many resources battling the Japanese, Poles, and Finns before Operation Barbarossa begins. :wink:
- Bru

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:14 pm

[Cool, I apologize. I meant to quote your post but I hit the edit button instead (my one forum moderator power) and I overwrote what you said. I'm sorry. You expressed support for my gameplay at Smolensk, saying I would have won it if I had played it again (perhaps, but I was too battle-fatigued to continue, but thanks). Then you said the following:]

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Guy in the Kubel: "Look! Bru left one of his tanks for us. Now there's a good chap." :D

[The post that I intended will follow. - Bru]

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bru888 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:26 pm

That's a KV-2, isn't it? I disparaged that tank as expensive and slow but if I had not wasted resources on Summa 40, I might have done well in purchasing KV-2's instead of a bunch of BT-7's at one point. Sure, the BT-7's run rings around the KV-2 but the latter packs a wallop and in defensive battles, they could be key.

Moscow has an aux KV-2 in it and as the scenario went along, my admiration for that tank grew. I certainly boxed some German ears with it and it was still going strong at the end.
- Bru

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:02 am

No problem, Bru. :) Been there with mod's editing powers and you had to be careful with them. Though my fav was the banning power in those boards where I was an admin. :twisted:

Yes, KV-2 it is and the pic was originally posted by Spike (thanks!) and he was then wondering what the guy in the Kubel was saying. Now we know. :D

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:56 am

Alright, I held Moscov and pushed the Wehrmacht back.
Strangely enough, I found this pretty straightforward. I'll post my deployment below.
If you stick to OoB rules in general and follow the Red Army's strengths (numbers, tanks, AA Bofors), this should work out.
The main trust is on both flanks. Deploy your tanks there and your fighter planes and AA.
When the Wehrmacht is wavering (you will get a message, but also see it on the battlefield), counterattack. Secure the primaries. The easier secondaries are in the south.
But be careful, there is artillery, hidden AT, dug in infantry and tank reinforcements waiting. Flame tanks come in useful here.
Overall, I had a lot of fun. But I found it quite strange that gaining air superiority to total dominance was feasible for the Red Airforce in most missions. Knock out the 109s with AA and that lone Stuka is toast.
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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by conboy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:19 am

bru888 wrote, Poe-like,
my lack of resources that began with Summa 40 caught up with me in Smolensk
I'm playing on level 3 vice my usual level 4 -- for a break in the action and some fun. But now, reading Bru888's note, I have trepidations, a creeping dread -- a pit in my stomach -- is there a trap? what gave Bru a whipping there? why would he warn us? is there a snarling beast, a Finnish Jabberwock lurking in the woods, waiting to tear the flesh from my Red soldiers' bones?

is this some sort of message signifying, yield to your caution -- turn away? he knows, yet he only says -- "caught up with me"

if not summa, then, what
IS
the horror that lies beyond summa and within dark smolensk ... one can but wonder

now I'm nervous guys -- into the breach (summa 40) I go.

wish me luck, comrades.

in the (paraphrased) words of Jimi Hendrix --
see you on the other side.

conboy

ps, it's been great. Erik has my scenarios if I don't make it out.

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bru888 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:35 pm

Heh, rather "Poe-tic" of you, conboy. No, it's simply that I didn't play well enough against the Finns because it is my belief that you need as many resources as you can amass before tackling the Operation Barbarossa portion of the campaign. As for "a Finnish Jabberwock lurking in the woods," if you mean A-T guns, you're right!
- Bru

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by conboy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:59 pm

I found it all right. Well-placed bugaboo, that was! Fortunately I had some infantry only 2 turns away.

I attacked with most of my armor on my right flank and took out the obstacles in sequence, my right to left. Cost a zillion points -- started out with 1069 and ended up with 448 and most of my planes shot up badly. I wish I knew how to play the air part of this game! Every time I buy a tack or strat bomber I regret it...

I should say that I didn't check my points before the scenario start -- I think the point count of 1069 is at start of turn three.
Also, Bru, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't play well, just that the Finns/scenario might be treacherous.

I took the primaries before I got either secondary. Guess I have to wait to meet the new commander.

All in all, this Red Star campaign is pretty dang fun on Level 3! So far, it's lively -- all the scenarios so far have a lot of movement and plenty of resources. I give the devs a solid "A" grade on this one (unless it turns dark and ugly later)!

conboy
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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bru888 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:05 pm

conboy wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:59 pm
Also, Bru, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't play well, just that the Finns/scenario might be treacherous.
No, I meant to say that I didn't play well! Because I didn't. When I was done with Summa 40 I had only a handful of RP's left. You have 448 which is a good start for the next scenario. Try to do the same in Viipuri because starting with Raseiniai, you are really going to need them. And don't worry, Red Star is good all the way through. It gets harder with Operation Barbarossa, but that stands to reason.
- Bru

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by conboy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:40 am

Ugh!
Rasenai was a rough one. Didn't hold the secondary objectives (I could have retaken them easily if I had been on my toes). Killing the 6 tanks was not difficult, the hard part was being patient (grubbing for the extra RPs...)

I was getting sick of all the casualties to my core I so pulled back to the second river and let the auxiliary units hold them off. What a mess. Ended the scenario with 53 points, and almost no veteran units left. Grr!

I bought 3 YAK fighters and two t-34s. Obviously, that's where my RPs went. Oh, and I also bought a nice artillery unit but no transport, that was lost in the retreat to German fighters and recon units. phhht! up in smoke. Grr!

Now the strat bomber and tac bomber I bought in the previous scenario are useless because of CP limitations. Grr! (I strongly advise the players that follow to utilize the specialty that awards a star to all new fighter planes.)

Now I'm on turn 0 of Smolensk with 350 RPs and all my units replenished (but not with veteran replacements.) A little worse off than the start of Rasenai.

I must say the scenario is very well done, along with the campaign.

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre (game).

conboy

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by bru888 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:35 pm

conboy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:40 am
I bought 3 YAK fighters . . .
The next time I play Red Star, I think I will not be wasting resources on Soviet fighters. They are too weak versus their German counterparts. I will still go with bombers, but the "money" that I would have spent on fighters will go toward mobile AA guns.
- Bru

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by prestidigitation » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:36 pm

Marine have great stats but expensive to reinforce. Their vs mech stat is also not great. Standard strelki for me any day over the elite units. Infantry, artillery and AT guns are my bread and butter. Artillery is how you kill infantry, not other infantry. And in a defensive position you want heavy infantry backed by AT, not elite infantry. Just never makes sense imo except when you know you'll regularly want airborne units for paradrops as in German campaigns.

On difficulty 4 I managed to get 3 out of 4 standard infantry to guard status (vet 4) with the last only a couple hundred xp shy. I also had 4x vet 4 or vet 5 T34, 2x vet 5 B4, 2x vet 3 ML-30, 1x vet 2 KV-1 mod 41 (this was honestly too high for such an expensive unit). I found it difficult to vet up my 2x engineers and my single heavy infantry. I use only the cheap AA and AT (x2 of both) bc they consume a mere 2 CP with 2 move points allowing them to keep up with everything on roads without a transport. Very efficient! BTW if you have trouble fighting tank vs tank use an AT gun behind your tank line. Absolutely mutilates enemy tanks. I had a BA-10M for cleanup but it was often tough to find space to deploy it when it is so desperately important to have minimum 4x vet 3 tanks coming out of the Finnish scenarios.

Units with an AT gun behind them will take substantially less damage from tanks btw.

I found that my refusal to attack without super favorable odds and heavy use of artillery made most of the scenarios trivial hence my ability to vet the heck out of everything. The sole exception was Yelnya because the AI camps and arty spams which, well, I do too. The B4 in particular is a spectacular standout unit and I am sad it isn't available from minute one anymore. That said I just don't think I can get away with 20 CP in B4. 18 in artillery is already a pretty high proportion imo.

I maintained a starting pool of req of 1k to 1.5k in the Finnish scenarios and 1.5 to 2k in the Nazi scenarios without much difficulty.

I had 5x planes I used regularly. 2x vet 4-5 yak 1. Elite yaks with commanders are extremely efficient at downing Nazi fighters but generally you want to do this with AA support. 2x IL4 strategic bombers for efficiency krumping. 1x IL-2 that I upgraded from the free tactical bomber. In prior runs I had gotten a 3rd fighter instead because I have a low opinion of tactical bombers (much more vulnerable to AA and enemy fighters than a heavy bomber, low efficiency damage, poor str damage until vetted up), but I decided to give it a go this run. As long as it is escorted and used near friendly AA or in backline areas to clean up enemy units distant from enemy air cover it is quite good. Otherwise, wow, what a bleeder.

bru888 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:26 pm
That's a KV-2, isn't it? I disparaged that tank as expensive and slow but if I had not wasted resources on Summa 40, I might have done well in purchasing KV-2's instead of a bunch of BT-7's at one point. Sure, the BT-7's run rings around the KV-2 but the latter packs a wallop and in defensive battles, they could be key.

Moscow has an aux KV-2 in it and as the scenario went along, my admiration for that tank grew. I certainly boxed some German ears with it and it was still going strong at the end.
Check reinforce cost on it and you'll see why it is actually pretty terrible. It eats money and getting it to high vet isn't possible without cheats because elite reinforcement is beyond all comprehension in cost. I used one for a couple scenarios and was utterly bankrupted by it due to heinous reinforce cost even with standard reinforce. Looks cool, way too expensive. A vet 4 T-34 is more effective in pretty much every way, and the mod 41 KV1 is also better in most cases. IMO the sole exception is Raisenai scenario because it is literally a sit and hit. Not worth it for just that though.

I personally loathe the BT7. The T26 is a cheaper unit with equivalent stats, and especially in scenario 1 is a great buy because it allows you to load up on vital artillery. It does well enough at generating encirclements. In later scenarios the T28B and C are excellent breakthrough tanks. Overextending tanks is also wildly dangerous given how frisky the AI is with encirclements. Good way to eat a lot of free damage on a unit you typically want at max vet to no purpose.

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:07 pm

prestidigitation wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:36 pm
Units with an AT gun behind them will take substantially less damage from tanks btw.
That's a misconception, though. Supporting units in OoB increase the attacking stats only.

Your tactics are sound otherwise IMO, together with what you wrote in the other thread. Other players that want to get better at this game should really listen to you.
We might just have different opinions concerning units and hoarding money. I did not need any cheats to have a 5-star KV2 tank in this campaign (and the other one had about 3-star I think)... :wink:

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by conboy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:37 am

I am getting clobbered in this campaign, probably because of bad tactical decisions and bad investments in combat units.

After rebuilding all my units (except air) I am going into Yelnya turn 1 with only 327 RPs (and no airplanes except the Tac Fighter awarded earlier).

I do have a complaint (whine?) about this scenario though -- after turn 11, I had negated all the German armor, smashed their attacks, and taken the center point (Krasnyy? with the airfield). I wanted to retreat my core and try to build up some RPeez. But no such luck due to half-hearted German counterattacks that kept bleeding my troops to the bitter end. grr!

Would the Germans have kept sending units into the breach with no chance of victory? (at that stage of the war, anyway -- later on it was common.)

grr!

wish me luck on Yelna.

conboy

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Re: 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

Post by prestidigitation » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:48 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:07 pm
prestidigitation wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:36 pm
Units with an AT gun behind them will take substantially less damage from tanks btw.
That's a misconception, though. Supporting units in OoB increase the attacking stats only.

Your tactics are sound otherwise IMO, together with what you wrote in the other thread. Other players that want to get better at this game should really listen to you.
We might just have different opinions concerning units and hoarding money. I did not need any cheats to have a 5-star KV2 tank in this campaign (and the other one had about 3-star I think)... :wink:
I'm not sure how you managed to pay for 2x high vet KV2 without being bankrupt. I'd love to see your orbat with that comp though.

I generally see 6 damage on open terrain vs vet 3 tanks to standard infantry if unsupported, and 2 to 4 damage to the same infantry if on open ground. Maybe they take the same damage either way but it sure doesn't feel like it!

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