[Re-]Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

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[Re-]Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm

I keep a text file that lists all of the customizations that I have made to my copy of OOB; nothing approaching mod status, just preferences and corrections made to Data and Language files. Here is one of my latest entries:

units.csv - removed "Unreliable" trait from type4_ke-nu #62, m4a1_sherman_fa #202, m4a2_sherman_fa #278, m4a3_76w_fa #279, m4a3e8_76w_fa #280, PzKw_V_Panther_D #2071, PzKw_VI_Tiger_H #1130, KV-1_m1940 #2271, SU-76 #3082, SU-76_ART #1128.


As I said in another thread recently, "I keep toying with the idea of eliminating that trait altogether from my units.csv because I happen to agree with [a fellow forum member]. It makes the vehicles in question quite useless and to be avoided, thereby posing the question of why have those units in the game in any case?" Well, I have crossed the Rubicon now on this issue.

The one aspect of this decision that gave me pause was the sandbagged Shermans. Shouldn't there be a substantial penalty for a cost-free armor upgrade like this? But then I thought, if GI's knew that their tank was going to probably break down using this tactic, why would they do so and leave themselves like sitting ducks on the battlefield?

In the end, I settled for the drawback of reduced mobility, which makes sense and which is the only consideration mentioned in the associated popup message. It says nothing about "Unreliable" or mechanical failure.

Screenshot 1.jpg
Screenshot 1.jpg (452.19 KiB) Viewed 526 times

Indeed, this whole idea of "Unreliable" is like a "gotcha" in that not only must it be noticed among other traits in a small window, one must remember which units on the battlefield are affected by this because, let's face it, do you click on the terrain hex type window to change it to unit traits every time you move a unit? So it's "Darn it, I forgot not to move my KV-1 model 1940's. There they go orange again." and "Comrade, you know how Unreliable these KV-1's from 1940 are but next year's KV-1 model will be so much more Reliable. So for now, you are not to move your KV-1's even if the Wehrmacht drives around them toward Smolensk. It's not worth the fuel!"

This is not on the order of Heavy/Light Tread in which the effects are temporary and can be seen prior to movement. This is consistently and persistently handicapping certain units based on supposed statistics of unreliability. Look, I don't dispute the research that went into this trait and the units to which it is applied. I do dispute the drastic effect that it has on those units and associated gameplay. It seems to me that in Red Star, I was hobbled with the weaker BT-7 tank for several scenarios because the next logical and affordable upgrade was the KV-1 model 1940. That was after having to replay one scenario chiefly because it was a case of "Darn it, I forgot altogether about the Unreliable trait!" Gotcha.

This is my opinion, of course. I am not advocating that the trait be removed from the game; we have seen pros and cons accordingly. I merely wish to add my own support to those who are also uncomfortable with it.
- Bru

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:57 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm
..This is my opinion, of course. I am not advocating that the trait be removed from the game..
I am mate, the sooner it's thrown out the better..:)
Ironically the devs reduced the severity of its effects in 716 or 718 (can't remember which) but then some guy complained that he wanted the old severe trait back, so the devs gave in and put it back in 810, completely ignoring me and you and other people who don't like the trait, grrrr

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:23 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:57 pm
Ironically the devs reduced the severity of its effects in 716 or 718 (can't remember which) but then some guy complained that he wanted the old severe trait back, so the devs gave in and put it back in 810, completely ignoring me and you and other people who don't like the trait, grrrr
We all know the nick of this "some guy" begins with "K". :wink: And whether you like it or not, he is right. Unreliable adds a bit of realism to the game. But I also understand how Bru and you and no doubt several others feel about the trait. For me it matters nothing whether it is there or not - I just adjust my gaming accordingly. And Bru: there is no research regarding the matter in OoB. If there were, then for instance the KV-2 which was truly unreliable would have the trait. Imo do it well or not at all, so probably better to not have the trait (= you made the right call).
bru888 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm
Indeed, this whole idea of "Unreliable" is like a "gotcha" in that not only must it be noticed among other traits in a small window, one must remember which units on the battlefield are affected by this because, let's face it, do you click on the terrain hex type window to change it
And here I was thinking all the players know the WW2 stuff inside out. This is not the case?? :shock: :wink: :lol:

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by terminator » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:49 pm

During the beta test of Red Star I finally found interesting the use of the KV-1_m1940 #2271.

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:53 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:23 pm
..We all know the nick of this "some guy" begins with "K". :wink: And whether you like it or not, he is right.
I can't remember who 'K' is, maybe he's the devs blue-eyed boy which is why they listened to him and not us..:)
He's only right up to a point, tanks did break down historically but the very severe effect in OOB reduces them to useless junk, so an ideal compromise would be for the devs to make the traits severity much less severe so that it can cover more mileage before going belly up.

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:57 pm

I can't remember who 'K' is, maybe he's the devs blue-eyed boy which is why they listened to him and not us..:)
If you don't like this trait then you can delete it from unit.csv file (just like Bru did it)
But if Devs completely remove it (or change it) from the game, then I and some people who are supporters of this solution will not be able to use it at all, and this will be discrimination IMO
Besides, I proposed to introduce the "old" version of Unreliable only in the editor or give players the opportunity to edit "the power" of this trait
As for me, I just need that trait (in such form) to create a realistic picture of the development of armored troops during World War II - extend it to other models and other factions

Tigers, Panthers, or even Soviet KV-1 constituted only a small fraction of tanks, Pz III and especially Pz IV predominated (and StuGs of course), and in the Red Army first T-26 and BT-5/7, and later T-34
I don't want the OoB player to buy 6 Tigers, 4 Jagdpanther and 5 17cm K18 for easy win, I want OoB to be the most realistic simulator as possible

BTW PoorOldSpike, who are you that Devs have to listen to you?
What did you give for this forum, apart from embarrassing statements at the level of mentality of retarded teenager?

Please, submit to beta testing and create this game, have some influence on it, but I see that you are trying to manipulate instead

@Bru
Bru, as far as I'm concerned Devs can remove this trait from all units, but I want it to stay in the editor because I think it is brilliant and I want to use it when I play, ok?
Will you let me play the way I like?

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:15 am

kondi754 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 pm
..BTW PoorOldSpike, who are you that Devs have to listen to you?
..What did you give for this forum, apart from embarrassing statements at the level of mentality of retarded teenager?..
Oh god please make me funny (sniffle)..
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CoolDTA
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:36 am

Whoa, peace guys - you're both valued and respected members of this community. :)

This Kondi's statement
kondi754 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 pm
I don't want the OoB player to buy 6 Tigers, 4 Jagdpanther and 5 17cm K18 for easy win, I want OoB to be the most realistic simulator as possible
is what I think, too, and imo Unreliable -trait helps to alleviate that. Panzer Corps introduced soft cap to make it harder to field an überarmy and as a matter of fact I think something similar would be nice for OoB as well.

Regarding the effect of the trait, one can easily argue it is not severe enough as it is now. After all, it doesn't make you to lose anything permanently. Just let the unit rest a turn or two and it is again bright-​eyed and bushy-​tailed​ as ever.

Notwithstanding, Bru very eloquently described how the trait can be a pain. Since we play this game - and others - for fun, it is not good if the fun is taken away. Then the game is destined to wither away. Yes, OoB is very modding-friendly - and that is great - but not all players are as computer savvy as Bru et al to make their own adjustments. Maybe the trait could be optional (like the soft cap in PzC is). Shouldn't be too difficult "codewise" I guess, but that would be a job for the devs.

Nice credentials there, Spike. :)

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by WarHomer » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:01 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:36 am
Whoa, peace guys - you're both valued and respected members of this community. :)

This Kondi's statement
kondi754 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 pm
I don't want the OoB player to buy 6 Tigers, 4 Jagdpanther and 5 17cm K18 for easy win, I want OoB to be the most realistic simulator as possible
is what I think, too, and imo Unreliable -trait helps to alleviate that. Panzer Corps introduced soft cap to make it harder to field an überarmy and as a matter of fact I think something similar would be nice for OoB as well.

Regarding the effect of the trait, one can easily argue it is not severe enough as it is now. After all, it doesn't make you to lose anything permanently. Just let the unit rest a turn or two and it is again bright-​eyed and bushy-​tailed​ as ever.

Notwithstanding, Bru very eloquently described how the trait can be a pain. Since we play this game - and others - for fun, it is not good if the fun is taken away. Then the game is destined to wither away. Yes, OoB is very modding-friendly - and that is great - but not all players are as computer savvy as Bru et al to make their own adjustments. Maybe the trait could be optional (like the soft cap in PzC is). Shouldn't be too difficult "codewise" I guess, but that would be a job for the devs.

Nice credentials there, Spike. :)
I dont think the trait does anything to avoid some ppl buying the units they might want and find best and most powerful. That would have to be done with CP or RP cost IMO. And it´s also logical to me that if one unit is more powerful than others it should cost more.

I also find the trait too severe and it makes me avoid the units altogether.

I do like a diverse army composition and is currently doing my own "max 2 of the same type unit Germany Grand challenge". I´m currently up to Barbarossa and for the first time I´m using all types of infantry and I´ve even bought one of those first german selfpropelled antitank guns that I can´t even remember the name of coz I never use it. I´m looking forward to experience the challenges of only being able to have 2 stugs and having to buy Marders or something else.

PS. It also applies for the SS :D

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:24 am

WarHomer wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:01 am
I dont think the trait does anything to avoid some ppl buying the units they might want and find best and most powerful. [...]

I also find the trait too severe and it makes me avoid the units altogether.
Ermh..., these two lines sound contradictory. First you say the trait has no effect and then that it does make you to avoid the units altogether. To me that sounds it very much have an effect. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning? :oops:
WarHomer wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:01 am
I do like a diverse army composition and is currently doing my own "max 2 of the same type unit Germany Grand challenge".
Sounds like a fun challenge! :)

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:29 am

I'm not saying that Unreliable is used optimally in OoB now. (although the KV-1 m.40 is very well used in the Red Star, but when it comes to the Wehrmacht and SS, this trait is far too mild for heavy and crashing German tanks)
But I think that I'm able to create a coherent development system based on historical realities thanks to it
I think you don't see the huge possibilities for the moders it gives

As I wrote earlier, Devs may remove it from unit.csv if most of players don't want it, but I really need it and only asked Devs for bringing it back to its old rules in editor.
They can even change the name and create another, milder form of this trait, so that I can continue to work on its old version, where it's punished to move such an overloaded vehicle

That is why I think that this is an artificial discussion that only aims to put others against me
Spike, by showing your Christmas tree decorations, you only convince me that I was right

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:53 am

Kondi, as one of those interested in your mod, there's something I'd like to ask: is it possible to use only your units.csv -file to benefit from your work? Or is it like a whole package i.e. you have made such changes that the mod can only be used in those DLCs to which you have made a complete overhaul (Sandstorm being the first one)? Also since I'm just a very mediocre player :oops: can it be used at lvl 3, too?
kondi754 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:29 am
That is why I think that this is an artificial discussion that only aims to put others against me
I don't think that would be the case. :)

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:46 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:53 am
Kondi, as one of those interested in your mod, there's something I'd like to ask: is it possible to use only your units.csv -file to benefit from your work? Or is it like a whole package i.e. you have made such changes that the mod can only be used in those DLCs to which you have made a complete overhaul (Sandstorm being the first one)? Also since I'm just a very mediocre player :oops: can it be used at lvl 3, too?

Of course, I can create one such file for all DLCs but I also differ unit.csv files - there will be also other, different files with units for each DLC separate
Because, in example:
British (or Western Allies) future GC - Sptfire VC appeared in spring 1942 over the Western Desert
but in Burma DLC - Spitfire VC appeared in 1944, additionally there were only Sherman and Grant tanks in Burma, no Churchill, Cromwell or Comet etc.
so it is necessary to create different unit.scv files for different campaigns

(but of course it is also possible to create a base file that will not accurately reflect the realities and differences in used equipment on different war fronts)

EDIT. Sandstorm should be first, because I find it as the most detached from reality, and besides, it requires the most work, because DAK used only selected types of armament, sometimes unique in the scale of the entire German army
I optimize all my work at level 5th, but I suppose that should be equally good to play on 3th

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:32 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:46 am
Because, in example:
British (or Western Allies) future GC - Sptfire VC appeared in spring 1942 over the Western Desert
but in Burma DLC - Spitfire VC appeared in 1944, additionally there were only Sherman and Grant tanks in Burma, no Churchill, Cromwell or Comet etc.
so it is necessary to create different unit.scv files for different campaigns
Ah, of course. A universal units.csv wouldn't work because the various theatres were not equal (like North Africa being somewhat secondary for the Germans) and not all equipment was in use everywhere at the same time. Thanks for the info! I'll follow your thread at the Design forum and wish you all the best for all the hard work. :)

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:34 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:29 am
Spike, by showing your Christmas tree decorations, you only convince me that I was right
If you think you're right to buy unreliable junk go ahead but I avoid it like the plague.
I've just won all 13 Red Star standalone scenarios and have just won the first 3 campaign battles, so I must be doing something right..:)
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:45 pm

@kondi, spike: I am not sure what I find more immature - insulting somebody by calling him a 'mentally retarded teenager' or brandishing your gaming medals as if they would mean anything.
You are both adults. Act accordingly.

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:07 pm

Cool. Cockfight... :mrgreen:

And just to be clear, the "unreliable" trait was NOT removed and then brought back by somebody's request. There was a glitch in the mechanic (bug) and it was FIXED with the update. :roll:

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:59 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:07 pm
Cool. Cockfight... :mrgreen:

And just to be clear, the "unreliable" trait was NOT removed and then brought back by somebody's request. There was a glitch in the mechanic (bug) and it was FIXED with the update. :roll:

Thanks Gabe, I felt like Shrek chased by villagers with pitchforks :)

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:41 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:12 pm
@Bru
Bru, as far as I'm concerned Devs can remove this trait from all units, but I want it to stay in the editor because I think it is brilliant and I want to use it when I play, ok?
Will you let me play the way I like?
There have been some good comments (and some not so good) in response, thank you all. Kondi, I believe yours, this, was the best. I'm not necessarily advocating removing the trait from the game altogether. Rather, my purpose was to lend support to folks who share my distaste for it and to offer the neatest, the best way to deal with it if they wish to remove it from their game. That way, we can all play the game the way we like concerning this issue.
- Bru

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:51 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:23 pm
We all know the nick of this "some guy" begins with "K". :wink: And whether you like it or not, he is right. Unreliable adds a bit of realism to the game. But I also understand how Bru and you and no doubt several others feel about the trait. For me it matters nothing whether it is there or not - I just adjust my gaming accordingly. And Bru: there is no research regarding the matter in OoB. If there were, then for instance the KV-2 which was truly unreliable would have the trait. Imo do it well or not at all, so probably better to not have the trait (= you made the right call).
This is another interesting comment (aside from the moral support, for which I thank you, Cool). If that is true, that this trait appears to have been somewhat arbitrarily assigned to certain units - aside from the sandbagged Shermans which did give me pause for thought but which I ultimately dismissed - see above), then all the more reason why I am glad I crossed the Rubicon.

Now, going forward, there may be debate on what Cool said about the accuracy of the "Unreliable" trait. Please keep the discussion civil; no epithets or denouncements. Andy is right.

And thanks for listening and caring about this topic and this game. It sometimes strikes me about the amount of thought, time, and passion that I put into it. Why?

Eh, why ask why. Just enjoy. :wink:
- Bru

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