[Re-]Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:24 pm

Andy2012 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:45 pm
You are both adults. Act accordingly.
MWAAH right that's it, I'm going back to Panzer Corps..:)

bru888
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:29 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:24 pm
MWAAH right that's it, I'm going back to Panzer Corps..:)
No you're not. You've got too much invested here. :wink:
- Bru

prattaa
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by prattaa » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:37 pm

FWIW I like the trait. There is an unfortunate amount of Nazi propaganda that flourishes still to this day and video games are a source of that. The unreliable trait shows that these tanks that everybody thinks are so uber are junk that was rushed into the field. Pz 2, 3, 4 were the backbone of all major German victories. Panthers & Tigers might have had small tactical successes but I would encourage others to look into some current works on their operational readiness rates, they were poor to say the least.

Now from a gameplay perspective the -2 efficiency penalty is pretty harsh, -1 plus standard efficiency loss might be more practical. In OOB they are good for roadblocks which is pretty accurate to their real world role.

nono hard et heavy
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by nono hard et heavy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:43 pm

Hello.
I think, and this is only my humble opinion, that we should leave the choice to the player for this trait. In my case, I leave this option and I do not modify the units. This adds more realism to the game. But I understand the different points of view.
I also play SPWW2. In the preferences menu, there are 2 options that I always set to ON: limited ammunition and breakdown (of the equipment). My beautiful Panther tank can break down at any time: the hazards of war.
Greetings.

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:33 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm
[...] do you click on the terrain hex type window to change it to unit traits every time you move a unit?
I'll be damned. Thanks Bruce! I was looking for this since the beginning.
And I've always wondered how they could've forgotten to put in the unit's trait info... turns out, they didn't.. :roll: :oops:

prattaa wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:37 pm
Now from a gameplay perspective the -2 efficiency penalty is pretty harsh, -1 plus standard efficiency loss might be more practical. In OOB they are good for roadblocks which is pretty accurate to their real world role.
It's absolutely incomprehensible to me, why there's so much fuss about this trait specifically. :lol:

But to barge in anyways, I'm with Prattaa on this, and would suggest to lower the effect to max. 10% eff. loss per move (maybe increase the chance to 66%?). And remove the eff. loss penalty when attacking altogether.

bru888
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:26 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:33 pm
bru888 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm
[...] do you click on the terrain hex type window to change it to unit traits every time you move a unit?
I'll be damned. Thanks Bruce! I was looking for this since the beginning.
And I've always wondered how they could've forgotten to put in the unit's trait info... turns out, they didn't.. :roll: :oops:
You've got to be kidding. With all of your advanced knowledge of the game (I'm speaking seriously), you didn't know this? Although I will grant you, it is easy to overlook/be unaware of. It took me a long time to find it (I think somebody else mentioned it here) and I still forget about it until I remember it again.

Well, if you're not kidding, you're welcome, sir. :)
- Bru

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:30 am

You know, with all the back and forth on this issue, one common theme is that, fortunately, we do can "leave the choice to the player for this trait" as nono says. Sure, it takes a bit of knowledge but if your interest in this game is that strong, you will acquire that knowledge. The developers left certain files in formats and places that make them accessible to editing. Long may this continue to be. Hence some famous mods out there. Also hence, the nitpicking nonsense (and not so nitpicking, to give myself some credit) that I indulge in order to make my copy of OOB the best and most enjoyable it can be. To me.
- Bru

kondi754
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am

@Bru, Gabe and the rest of "Unreliable enemy" :)
Why do you want to destroy OoB and its unique solutions and want to make it look like Panzer Corps at all costs?
The truth was that these vehicles were not allowed to drive, for example - Jagdtiger, 80 tons colossus, in which the engine and drive system were inserted from a tank 12 tons lighter (Tiger II), where in this tank (Tiger II) it was already insufficient and too overloaded
Jagdtiger was used for the first time in January 1945 in Alsace (op. Nordwind), one battalion of these vehicles was planned to participate there - but ultimately only 2 :!: Jagdtigers participated, because the rest broke in transport and during the march towards the front line ...
This trait doesn't have too strong effect in game, IMO it's definitely too little in the game, but do whatever you want, I withdraw, but if Devs change the strength of this trait and don't keep it in its current form in some way, I will officially cancel my Slitherine account and keep playing without me

EDIT. However, good idea would be to introduce different levels of unreliability indeed
e.g. current trait = unrealiable 3
increased current trait = unrealiable 4 (for Jagdtigers, Maus and E-series)
softened versions = unrealiable 1 and 2 for example

I could use them eg for T-34s from the beginning of the war or Shermans with "additional" armor

bebro
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bebro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:14 am

Bottom line of this thread: people have various preferences and ideas about how the game should behave in various situations. Same goes for the devs btw, just in case somebody is wondering...

WarHomer
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by WarHomer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:14 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:24 am
WarHomer wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:01 am
I dont think the trait does anything to avoid some ppl buying the units they might want and find best and most powerful. [...]

I also find the trait too severe and it makes me avoid the units altogether.
Ermh..., these two lines sound contradictory. First you say the trait has no effect and then that it does make you to avoid the units altogether. To me that sounds it very much have an effect. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning? :oops:


It was to avoid writing "exploitation" tactics.

CoolDTA
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 am

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am
EDIT. However, good idea would be to introduce different levels of unreliability indeed
e.g. current trait = unrealiable 3
increased current trait = unrealiable 4 (for Jagdtigers, Maus and E-series)
softened versions = unrealiable 1 and 2 for example

I could use them eg for T-34s from the beginning of the war or Shermans with "additional" armor
I agree. This would be great. But don't think we'll see it. :|

CoolDTA
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:58 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:33 pm
bru888 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:03 pm
[...] do you click on the terrain hex type window to change it to unit traits every time you move a unit?
I'll be damned. Thanks Bruce! I was looking for this since the beginning.
And I've always wondered how they could've forgotten to put in the unit's trait info... turns out, they didn't.. :roll: :oops:
I didn't know about this, either. No surprise there, but thanks for info, Bru! :)

To my defence I don't remember needing that because "And here I was thinking all the players know the WW2 stuff inside out." :wink: Probably 35 yrs minor min-maxing in rpgs and wargames has that effect. :oops:

terminator
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by terminator » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:09 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am
This trait doesn't have too strong effect in game, IMO it's definitely too little in the game, but do whatever you want, I withdraw, but if Devs change the strength of this trait and don't keep it in its current form in some way, I will officially cancel my Slitherine account and keep playing without me
Are you serious ?

bru888
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:25 pm

terminator wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:09 pm
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am
This trait doesn't have too strong effect in game, IMO it's definitely too little in the game, but do whatever you want, I withdraw, but if Devs change the strength of this trait and don't keep it in its current form in some way, I will officially cancel my Slitherine account and keep playing without me
Are you serious ?
I think he is, unfortunately.

Kondi, if you read this above - ". . .people have various preferences and ideas about how the game should behave in various situations. Same goes for the devs btw . . ." - then you know that if the developer prefers it this way, it's unlikely to be taken out of the game. As a matter of fact, didn't I read recently that when you thought it had been taken out in a recent patch, it was only a side effect of some bug which was subsequently fixed?

And when you say "Why do you want to destroy OoB and its unique solutions and want to make it look like Panzer Corps at all costs?" I wonder if you read my posts carefully. I have explicitly said that I don't advocate officially removing the Unreliable trait from the game because honored members of this community, such as yourself, think it is appropriate and should remain. I merely wanted to support others who feel differently and to offer them a way to remove it.

I would like you to stay a member of our community, Kondi, so I am stating my request to the developer right here: Please do not remove the Unreliable trait from the game. For those of us who dislike this trait it is easily removable, for which access we thank you.
- Bru

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by Andy2012 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am

This trait doesn't have too strong effect in game, IMO it's definitely too little in the game, but do whatever you want, I withdraw, but if Devs change the strength of this trait and don't keep it in its current form in some way, I will officially cancel my Slitherine account and keep playing without me
kondi uses 'blackmail'.
It is not very effective. No critical damage. :roll:

Jesus, has this strategy ever worked out for you? I remember several of your temper tantrums and none of them ended in anything else but embarassement for you. Let's not repeat that process.

bru888
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:32 pm

Here, I'll drop a bomb on you guys. I am now thinking about re-crossing the Rubicon! Partly it's from reading comments above but mostly it's this, quoting myself in the Tovarish thread:
You know, I'm sad about Red Star and OOB in general for two reasons. One is, my lack of resources that began with Summa 40 caught up with me in Smolensk, so I resorted to cheating with #warbonds. That immediately took me out of the position of being able to honestly report my results here, so I have stopped. At about the same time, I "crossed the Rubicon" with the Unreliable trait (quoting my recent thread) and that does the same thing only in general. With that change, I am not playing the same game as the rest of you guys. So I will not be posting Victory and Defeat notices in this type of thread any more because it will be like comparing apples and oranges.
So now you can all be mad at me for causing this ruckus and you can dump on me instead of the game and each other! :roll: :)
- Bru

bebro
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bebro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:15 pm

I think this is a primary case for modding. Because whatever route the devs take you'll always have ppl who prefer it otherwise. So that is exactly where modding comes in, because it gives ppl the option to change things to what ***they prefer.

There is no further change on this trait planned, what has been done recently was basically reinstating it. As posted by Gabeknight above. Which brings us back to "I think this is a primary case for modding".

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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by kondi754 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:49 pm

@Bru
It would be terrible for me to leave such good company 8) , but I imagined that Devs would fulfill the players' demands and remove it completely.
Don't treat it like blackmail, it wasn't written for that purpose. Rather, I wanted to show how important this issue is to me.
I didn't want it to sound like a threat.

@Andy
Not this time, besides, don't write that several times, because such a situation, when I was offended and wanted to delete my account, happened only once and resulted from a simple misunderstanding, caused by my limitations in fluent use of the English language, so please, don't add any theory about blackmail where it isn't :)

bru888
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Re: Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:56 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:49 pm
@Bru
It would be terrible for me to leave such good company 8) , but I imagined that Devs would fulfill the players' demands and remove it completely.
Don't treat it like blackmail, it wasn't written for that purpose. Rather, I wanted to show how important this issue is to me.
I didn't want it to sound like a threat.
That's the spirit, Kondi. Listen, I want to give you some advice if you will hear it. And no, the advice is not "Remember this is only a game." It's can be more than that, more than even a hobby. It can be a passion.

But even so, there's not much upside to getting worked up over it, wherever happens to it or people say about it. Take it from me, I was there and I know this now. Whatever happens to OOB is out of our hands. We can only provide our input, stated diplomatically, and whatever is noticed and adopted by The Artistocrats is up to them.

So the advice is this: Chill. I mean that kindly, believe me. Don't get so excited that you run yourself out of the game. We need you and your input here. :wink:
- Bru

bru888
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[Re-]Crossing the Rubicon on "Unreliable"

Post by bru888 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm

All clear? No pitchforks and firebrands for the old Brucenstein monster?

Good. Then now is as good a time as any to announce that I have changed my mind due to the "apples and oranges" thing that I mentioned above. After a few days of careful deliberation, I decided to put the "Unreliable" trait back into my game. All of it, including the sandbagged Shermans. Indeed, unlike Julius Caesar, I have re-crossed the Rubicon!

Oh, I still have quite a few tweaks in units.csv. Here is the list, most of it coming from what I read here in the forums; it was longer before patch 8.1.0 which included several corrections made in units.csv:

units.csv alterations.jpg
units.csv alterations.jpg (378.48 KiB) Viewed 161 times

but none of these are real game-changers. Removing the "Unreliable" trait went over that line, I finally decided.

Say, I have led you all on a merry chase, haven't I? What sport! Tra-la-la-la-la! :lol: [Ducks things thrown at him.]
- Bru

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