OoB Western Allies GC sketch

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kondi754
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OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:18 am

Bearing in mind that Devs are currently focused on Soviet GC, I decided to make a sketch of the future Western Allies GC.
Maybe Artistocrats will use it in the future (at least some of my ideas :lol: ) but certainly they will not be able to say now that the works are so far advanced that everything has been already established and decided :twisted: :lol:
I also gave the initial titles to all parts of the campaign

PART 1_ DARKEST HOUR
scn 1_ Dyle riverline defense
scn 2_ Arras (EDIT3. attempts to break the German lines south and connect with the French army on the Somme river)
scn 3_ Retreat to Dunkirk/Dunkirk evacuation (land-naval-air)
scn 4_ Taranto raid (naval-air)
scn 5_ Operation Compass
scn 6_ Battle at Cape Matapan (naval-air)
scn 7_ Battle of Thermopylae/Evacuation from Greece
scn 8_ Crete (land-naval-air)
scn 9_ Tobruk
scn 10_ Operation Crusader
scn 11_ Battle of Marsa Matruh/British retreat to Egypt
scn 12_ Convoy battle (op. Pedestal)
scn 13_ Alam Halfa (first Alamein) -> default Core save for British side
EDIT. To consider: scn 4 Battle for Narvik/Allies evacuation from Norway(@Erik)
EDIT2. Remove Taranto scn (@Prestidigitation suggestion)

PART 2_ YANKS ARE COMING
Player chooses side - [BR]British or [US]American
scn 1_ Second Alamein[BR] or Operation Torch[US]
scn 2_ Tripolis[BR] or Kesserine[US]
scn 3_ Mareth Line/Medenine[BR] or Operation Wop/El Guettar[US]
scn 4_ Tunis[BR/US]
scn 5_ Sicily landing[BR/US] (land-naval-air)
scn 6_ Sicily East/Catania[BR] or Sicily West/Agrigento-Palermo[US]
scn 7_ Race to Messina[BR/US]
scn 8_ Salerno landing/Volturno line[BR/US]
scn 9_ Cassino-Ortona/Gustav line[BR] or Anzio[US]
scn 10_Race for Rome (to Trasimene line)[BR/US] -> default Core save for British and US sides
scn 11(bonus)_Gothic line east/Ancona-Rimini[BR] or Gothic line west/Florence-Pisa[US]
scn 12(bonus)_Battle for Bologna/Spring 1945 offensive in Italy[BR/US]
To consider: land-naval-air scn on the Aegean Sea(Greece) in autumn 1943 but this would only apply to the British, there is no similar US Army operation in the Mediterranean at that time

PART 3_LIBERATION

[BR]British or [US]American <- Player chooses side or depending on loaded Core
scn 1_ D-Day[BR/US]
scn 2_ Caen[BR] or Cherbourg[US]
scn 3_ Operation Totalize/Falaise[BR] or Operation Cobra/Argentan[US]
scn 4_ Paris (central France)[BR/US]
scn 5_ Operation Market-Garden[BR] or Lorraine[US]
scn 6_ Walcheren/Scheldt estuary(land-naval-air)[BR] or Hurtgen Forrest[US]
scn 7_ Battle of the Bulge[BR/US]
scn 8_ Operation Veritable/Blockbuster[BR] or Operation Grenade[US]
scn 9_ Operation Plunder/Varsity[BR] or Operation Lumberjack (Remagen bridgehead)[US]
scn 10_ Ruhr encirclement[BR/US]
To consider: 2 parallel scns British raid to Hamburg or US raid to Munchen and Salzburg as bonus and the last scn Operation Unthinkable(Western Allies vs Soviets) as super-bonus 8) :wink:

All scenarios I have carefully and deeply analyzed, I even prepared preliminary sketches for the preparation of maps for some of them (e.g. the battle of Thermopylae and the evacuation of BEF from Greece 1941 or Gothic line 1944). I wonder if Devs projects will go in the same direction?
Last edited by kondi754 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

GUNDOBALDO08
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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:11 am

Wow, Kondi i love your sketch, first of all “scn 11(bonus)_Gothic line east/Ancona-Rimini[BR] or Gothic line west/Florence-Pisa[US]
scn 12(bonus)_Battle for Bologna/Spring 1945 offensive in Italy[BR/US]”
I never see Gothic line scenarios, because All designers concentrate on France theatre, and I want it so much!
The last thing I will prefer not divide Us/Brits core but to have both in same core like Germ/Ita in Sandstorm... more Id like have also France core from ‘40 to ‘45...

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:46 am

GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:11 am
Wow, Kondi i love your sketch, first of all “scn 11(bonus)_Gothic line east/Ancona-Rimini[BR] or Gothic line west/Florence-Pisa[US]
scn 12(bonus)_Battle for Bologna/Spring 1945 offensive in Italy[BR/US]”
I never see Gothic line scenarios, because All designers concentrate on France theatre, and I want it so much!
The last thing I will prefer not divide Us/Brits core but to have both in same core like Germ/Ita in Sandstorm... more Id like have also France core from ‘40 to ‘45...


I would also prefer that someone to finally bring the Italian campaign to the end ... I'm glad you like it.
By way of explanation - I divided the 2nd and 3rd parts into separate paths - the British and the US Army, but I think it's possible to play these scenarios in turn, once British and American.
On the other hand, British-American scenarios are designed as either played on the same large map, where one faction will be pre-deployed (auxilliary) or played on different smaller maps, then for example:
- Sicily landing (BR) - the eastern part of the landing area, and Sicily landing (US) - the western part, D-Day the same way, while the Ardennes - the northern part would be British, southern (with Bastogne) American etc.
Third option - all cores are available for Player and when cooperative scenario starts he may deployed all units
Last edited by kondi754 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by Erik2 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 am

I would add the ill-fated Norwegian campaign to the Darkest Hour. This could be a nice combination of air-land-naval battles involving British, Norwegian, French Polish and German forces.

Regards from the Norwegian

kondi754
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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 am
I would add the ill-fated Norwegian campaign to the Darkest Hour. This could be a nice combination of air-land-naval battles involving British, Norwegian, French Polish and German forces.

Regards from the Norwegian
Thanks Erik
I thought about it, but I'm not sure when to place it, because the events in Norway coincide with the events in Belgium and France.
As the first scenario - I'm thinking of the British landing at Andalsnes and the battle of Hammar, or maybe as the fourth (after Dunkirk) - the capture and evacuation from Narvik?
It is difficult to combine all this into a coherent whole with operations in Western Europe in May 1940

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by prestidigitation » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:18 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm
Erik2 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 am
I would add the ill-fated Norwegian campaign to the Darkest Hour. This could be a nice combination of air-land-naval battles involving British, Norwegian, French Polish and German forces.

Regards from the Norwegian
Thanks Erik
I thought about it, but I'm not sure when to place it, because the events in Norway coincide with the events in Belgium and France.
As the first scenario - I'm thinking of the British landing at Andalsnes and the battle of Hammar, or maybe as the fourth (after Dunkirk) - the capture and evacuation from Narvik?
It is difficult to combine all this into a coherent whole with operations in Western Europe in May 1940
It'd replace the Taranto raid, which is wildly uninteresting from a tactical/operational picture (naval air attack against stationary naval defenders). Historical timing and accuracy have never been big issues for this franchise.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by bru888 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:20 pm

Now you see why we need you here, Kondi? :wink:
- Bru

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by Erik2 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:25 pm

The fighting around Narvik is probably the most interesting as the Allies actually beat Dietl's Gebirgsjäger troops, until some incident in France and the Low Countries caused the Allies to shift focus and left the Norwegian to themselves.

kondi754
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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:32 pm

bru888 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:20 pm
Now you see why we need you here, Kondi? :wink:
Thanks Bru

prestidigitation wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:18 pm

It'd replace the Taranto raid, which is wildly uninteresting from a tactical/operational picture (naval air attack against stationary naval defenders). Historical timing and accuracy have never been big issues for this franchise.
Hmm, maybe you're right

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:39 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:25 pm
The fighting around Narvik is probably the most interesting as the Allies actually beat Dietl's Gebirgsjäger troops, until some incident in France and the Low Countries caused the Allies to shift focus and left the Norwegian to themselves.
Done. To consider: Option 2nd in connection with the removal of Taranto raid scn

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by prestidigitation » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:13 pm

I'd personally start the opener as UK/FRA and go with Dyle Line (1), Sedan (2), Stonne (3) and then Dunkirk Evacuation (4) followed by Narvik (5) as a change of pace. Arras and De Gaulle's counterattack were both shambolic and pretty limited in scope so I'd personally fold them into the evacuation scenario by having it open with an armored battle followed by the actual evac to liven that scenario. I see you've followed the traditional British line of completely forgetting the second BEF evacuation at Cherbourg or the fact that France continued heavy fighting for six weeks after. Obviously I don't love that lol! So for me, Cherbourg Evacuation (6) would include the Seine, Orne and Cherbourg with another fighting retreat.

At this point I'd swing into focus on the wider war and some less commonly portrayed scenarios starting with Dakar (7). This would be an air/naval battle at start with some hilarious event (use some fighters to capture an enemy airfield, what could go wrong) that would add a ground campaign if you managed to knock out the defending batteries. Historically it was a flop, but it would be an incredible scenario! The wiki article doesn't nearly do it justice, absolutely ridiculous how amateurish the entire force was even this late into the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dakar

Then I'd do Compass (8) and then a campaign throughout Iraq and Syria (9) that starts as air only at Habbaniya (complete with the and then morphs into a wider fight using HABforce, Glubb's Girls (Arab Legion), Kingcol, the Basra attack, followed by the fighting against the Vichy French at Syria as the endcap. You'd have a slow ramp up in resources available and the option to include the 1st Commando raid in Syria as a bonus objective. Ideally this would be a fast moving campaign where you're fighting with and against a lot of different stuff with lots of small flying columns on the ground and a bunch of fun auxiliaries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2% ... n_Campaign

Then I'd do Greece (10), Crusader (11), Masrah (12) and then Alamein (13). Crete I'd skip or fold into a Greece scenario as imo it is only really interesting from the German side.

A good book for ideas on this particular part of the war is England's Last War Against France which covers several of these campaigns. I'd also highly recommend the inclusion of France and Poland as subfactions as with the Italians, complete with their own special mini specialization tree. The Polish spec tree would be focused on air and armor, the French one would be commandos and infantry.

edit: My rationale for my choices is that most of these can be air/ground/naval (Dakar, Narvik, Syria portion of Iraq/Syria campaign, Dunkirk, Cherbourg) with fewer air/naval scenarios as imo those just aren't much fun. It also reduces the impact of traditional British historiography on this part of the war and moves it further away from the standard Allied General scenario list that Panzer Corps has already done an updated scenario for.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:16 pm

When I mentioned about Arras scn I mean about area where Arras is only one of the important points, don't follow the names of some maps, because I think about it in a simplified way and they relate to a much larger operational area - I was thinking rather about attempts to split German troops in the south (on Belgium-France border) and fight the connection with France, when it failed, there was a retreat to Dunkirk

You mentioned that some battles didn't matter but you give examples of other battles without meaning, additionally small and marginal operations with limited equipment and resources: Dakar, Syria, Iraq :? :roll:
Why the second scenario about the evacuation from France (Cherbourg) when we already have Dunkirk?
Another question - why 2 separate scenarios Sedan and Stonne, if these 2 cities are located a few kilometers apart... :shock:
These will be 2 tiny maps on a tactical scale, why?

I don't think that introducing a separate French faction makes sense because there are a limited number of scenarios and this faction ends in 1940 and isn't rebuilt until the second half of 1944, so we haven't France for most of the game, which will cause big problems
Multiplication of artificial scenarios (Dakar, Syria) just to prove your point is not a good idea.
Why not go further, maybe Madagascar or Bir-Hakeim (a small oasis on the Gazala line, which was defended by soldiers of the Free French Foreign Legion) an absolutely tactical scenario
We know that players are waiting primarily for a decent Anglo-American campaign, and side scenarios should appear rather in the Custom Scenario/Modding section

I'm sorry, but if the idea to remove the attack on Italian fleet in Taranto was (maybe) good, I don't buy these ideas

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:32 pm

OMF, title of first part is Darkest Hour, which refers to English proverb (the darkest hour is just before the dawn) and famous movie about Churchill (with Gary Oldman), so first part is about British and Commonwealth forces, so French, Norwegian, Greece, Poles etc. will be here only as a background to the events described

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by conboy » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:21 pm

This is a fascinating read so far.

Kondi, is this going to be more similar to a Wiki-style development effort, or will you absorb, coordinate, and decide? I think you would be an excellent arbiter and would steer it toward steely realism.

Just curious -- this could be an effort that might reshape the whole scope and nature of OoB. Downright revolutionary in many respects.

No matter what your approach, I look forward to glimpsing the output of the effort.

best of luck to you all -- Darkest Hour is a great idea for a campaign!

Success!

conboy

ps: Displaying my ignorance, could you advise me what OMF stands for?

pps: On second thought, I wouldn't mind assisting in the drafting some maps if you let me know what scale you want them on.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:16 am

conboy wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:21 pm
This is a fascinating read so far.

Kondi, is this going to be more similar to a Wiki-style development effort, or will you absorb, coordinate, and decide? I think you would be an excellent arbiter and would steer it toward steely realism.

Just curious -- this could be an effort that might reshape the whole scope and nature of OoB. Downright revolutionary in many respects.

No matter what your approach, I look forward to glimpsing the output of the effort.

best of luck to you all -- Darkest Hour is a great idea for a campaign!

Success!

conboy

ps: Displaying my ignorance, could you advise me what OMF stands for?

pps: On second thought, I wouldn't mind assisting in the drafting some maps if you let me know what scale you want them on.

OMF - one more fact :) but it seems to me that I invented this :lol:

To be honest, I don't know where it will lead yet, it's just a sketch to use for now
I feel strong when it comes to historical issues, I can do quite a lot when it comes to modifying ready content, but I must admit that I don't think I can create everything from scratch now
I could be the head of a project who designs everything down to the smallest detail, but I would need people to work who would put my ideas into practice... :lol:
This is unreal, because if someone has such skills, he will create something of his own instead of devoting your time to realizing someone else's ideas (quite rightly :wink: )
Another issue is the huge amount of free time which is necessary for such a project, and I have no chance for this

But thank you for your willingness to help, pal and treat all I wrote above as a list of my expectations for Devs, I'm sorry I can't realize this idea :(

PS. Writing about maps, I mean I was just checking if a given operational area could be included within a specific map in the game, so that it wasn't too big
Of course, I also dealt with scaling

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by conboy » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:20 pm

Ah! I misunderstood.

I thought you were announcing or proposing this undertaking to us, the participants in the forum.

The thread still makes for an entertaining read.

conboy

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by WarHomer » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:16 am

I would sure hope they do 2 separate; one US and one UK, maybe with third country subdivision, and not one combined or one that splits up in two.

This would make for more content, diversity and core navy.

I´m also a fan of a longer Italian campaign, and off course more pacific content.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by kondi754 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:05 pm

WarHomer wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:16 am
I would sure hope they do 2 separate; one US and one UK, maybe with third country subdivision, and not one combined or one that splits up in two.

This would make for more content, diversity and core navy.

I´m also a fan of a longer Italian campaign, and off course more pacific content.
This is very interesting, but @WarHomer has a completely different opinion from mine on EVERY topic :!: :idea:
I checked and he has never agreed with me (even partially)
It's good to know that somewhere in the world there is a person who thinks 100 percent differently from you 8) :)

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by WarHomer » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Let´s agree to disagree :D

I do like the work you out into your sketch, I just hope there will be 2 different GC´s.

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Re: OoB Western Allies GC sketch

Post by LandMarine47 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:42 am

I would love to see a hypothetical what-if scenarios if the player does manage to pull off Market Garden, or on the Italian front, a what if scenario if instead of rushing straight to Rome after the Anzio Breakout, the player can trap the German army trying to leave the Gothic Line, potentially leading to battles in northern Italy and Austria.

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