Battle of Cynoscephalae or Dogs head

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PPR
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Battle of Cynoscephalae or Dogs head

Post by PPR » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:32 pm

I have 3 legions (level 12-14), 1 leader (19), 2 scounts (17&10), 2 nobles (10&15), 2militia (18&19), 2 spearmen (13&15), 2 Auxila(6&9), 2 archers (3 both) and 2 tiraii (3&4). How do I win this battle???????

kongming
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Post by kongming » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:30 am

My strategy in battles like this one is to make sure the scrum happens on the ground of my choosing. Given Philip's strength in heavies, that means clearing the heights and turning his battle line up onto the ridge.

I would deploy my troops in 4 columns. The big picture is clear the ridge line, then form up new lines at 90 degrees to Phillip's. Force him to turn his line up the slope and into the rough where your light troops have an advantage.

Column #1, left of the center line of the battlefield, aligned slightly to the left of the center-most ridgeline. (you want to leave plenty of room between your troops and the open ground, so they don't to anything silly like charging down into the open). This first column would be composed of my light troops. Given your troop composition I would lead that column with my militia. Their job would be to clear the ridge of the two light infantry. They would be followed by the auxillaries who I would look to keep out of the fray and fresh to be the first line to face Philip's heavies.

#2 my heavies (legions and triari). In this case they would be supporting the front line aux and helping clear up the ridgeline.

#3 archers and missile troops to keep them effective and protected.

#4 cavalry. Charge the left flank cav, clear them out, then take up a position on top of the field. Once Philipp's troops start to move, his archers will be exposed and you can send your cavalry after them. And once the archers are cleaned up, then the cav can charge the rear of Philip's lines.
“There are only a few notes in the scale.
Yet you can always rearrange them.
You can never hear every song of victory”
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

pgeerkens
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Post by pgeerkens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:54 am

Oops - see below
Last edited by pgeerkens on Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pgeerkens » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:54 am

Another way to run this battle, that I find easier with my army composition on GBOR, is as follows:
- Legate dead-centre, bottom
- on the right, at spacing of 1,1 and 3 fro your legate and all on long-hold: Princeps 2 Offensive/ Princeps 1 Offensive/Triari 1 balanced
- on far left from front to back: triari 2 balanced, charge/HvyCav *2 Offensive on short hold/ Skirmisher 1 balanced on long hold/Archer 1 balanced on long hold
- on medium left: Aux 1 & Militia 1, offensive on long hold, in front of Velites 1 & 2, offensive also on long hold
- on near left: Aux 1 & Princeps 3, offenisve on long hold, spaced 3 gaps from your legate

If you have an extra missiler, squeeze them in on the left where they won't attempt to engage Philip's Warriors in their run down the ridge.

This layout keeps your army almost entirely out of range of Philip's archers until just before our cav eliminates them.

Philip's cavalry units will engage your hoplites (triari/spearmen) and promptly get tossed just as his main army starts to advance. His warriors will have been already dispatched to Valhalla by your Princeps on the right. Now your cavalry can end-run to his archers, while your missilers advance onto the ridge to tease his heavies up also.

Last run through my Trari 1 didn't quite get onto the ridge, and engaged Philip's body guard in clear. I thought I was a goner, but quickly targeted 2 missilers on them, ran my legate over, brought one cav and then a seccond into their rear, and Rallied the moment my Triari started to shake. The trari did eventually run, but only after Philip's Guard's had also started to shake and the rest of his army was routing. I still ended up winning, though less neatly than planned.

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Post by starscreamusrevengi » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:01 pm

hi
i have just started this game and whilst some people might slag it off, i like it. that was until dogs head. i have been stuck on this battle for two days now. i have got cavalry and legionares but no bow men or weaker troops. i can not move my army quick enough around. i have got 6 heavy cavalry and 1 light cavalry and around 10 heavy infantry. can any one suggest a way to overcome my problems

thanks :D

kongming
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Post by kongming » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:51 pm

Have you tried putting your heavy infantry on long hold and letting the opponent come to you. In the meantime sending your substantial cavalry force long to loop around the back of the field and attack from the rear? Your infantry will take a bruising until the cav charges. Also, you would need to be sure that your cav does not get tangled up with light troops in the rough. It is a sad day when militia send a heavy cavalry unit packing.
“There are only a few notes in the scale.
Yet you can always rearrange them.
You can never hear every song of victory”
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

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Post by starscreamusrevengi » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:48 pm

hi
thanks for the reply, i will try that, thanks for taking time to give me the advice.

i have disbanded two of my heavy infantry in order to buy 4 lots of archers so this will give me a srike force in advance rather than just let the big boys slug it out head to head. does anybody else find that some times having a large force becomes hard to keep in touch with the whole picture of the battle and then loose your general and he gets taken out.

dave :D

kongming
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Post by kongming » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:12 am

I've always tended on quality over quantity for that reason.
“There are only a few notes in the scale.
Yet you can always rearrange them.
You can never hear every song of victory”
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

keithp
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Post by keithp » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:50 pm

Hi All,

I am really stuck on this one. What gets me is the time! I have a strategy whch involves hitting hard on both sides and follwing up with the cav bit I always get to about 40 sec left and thats it!

This is really tough.

Apart from the ideas here - any other options?

Keith

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Post by pgeerkens » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:33 pm

One of the tricks not often described is that missiles (javelins and arrows) do much more damage to heavy infantry that are in rough terrain than they do to heavy infantry in clear terrain, and conversely much less damage to light infantry in rough terrain than in clear terrain. So part of making effective use of your army in this scenario is to delay, as much as possible, when your missilers start launching missiles. One achieves this by finding a way to defeat Philip's cavalry and light infantry as quickly as possible, out of range of his archers, and in clear terrain.

I do this by cramming my missilers into the lower left, my light infantry lined up tight against them in centre left, and my heavy swordsmen along the back line in centre and right, and my anti-cav infantry lined up one in far bottom right and one in upper left backed up by my cav. Everyone is on long hold except my upper left anti-cav on charge. I wait for Philip's light infantry to descned from the rough terrain where my heavies can make short work of them, and move my cavalry to the far upper lefft of the field as soon as Philip's cav on that side are disposed of.

Just about now Philip's army starts to advance. Now I get all swordsmen and spearmen onto rough terrain, take out his archers with my cav, and allow my arcchers to draw Philip's heavies into the rough terrain. My cav hits from behind as it frees up, and the battle is usually nicely over with 10 or 15 seconds left, and only a few routs on my side. I play this on Very Hard, with 2 each of skirmishers, velites, and archers, so I know it can work for everyone.
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

keithp
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Post by keithp » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:32 pm

Thanks for the advice.

Even following your suggestions - plus trying the others I am unable to crack this battle.

I even have the lowest settings plus arcade mode on.

No matter what i try I get to within 30 - 40 sec and nearly all the troops are in battle but they just can't beat the other side. I have tried everything - always the same, almost there, but not quite. I suspect that i will need to load a previous saved game and improve some of the units. Although i have some plus 14 units, I think I need to go for quality rather than numbers of troops.

Thanks for the ideas though. By the way after this battle how much more of the game is there? Is it worth me trying again?

Keith

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Post by pgeerkens » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:04 pm

Keith,

If you can't win this one on Normal+Arcade you have some serious army composition problems. With my army, at this level setting, I can win most scenarios by simply accepting the default deployment and instructing everyone to charge. Then I fine tune during the battle. I once played through on Normal without buying any additional units, just upgrading the original 4, and only a couple of scenarios give my any problem at all. By the end my militia were at about level 110! Post your army here and see if we can help.

I feel this is the last tough nut to crack, of about 68 scenarios as Rome; then you get to try being a Gaul for 40+.

BTW how many missilers do you have? And if you have only 14 units, you have not optimized your upgrades. I have a full 20 units as soon as I buy 2 archers at first availability, which actually makes deployment challenging in this scenario.

Pieter
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

keithp
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Post by keithp » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:47 pm

Ok thanks again

This my current army:

Legate - L15
Militia - L20
Skirmishers -L15, L12, L10
Scouts - L16. L15
Peasants - L15
Spearman - L19, L19, L9
Hastati - L13, L11
Nobles - L7
Legionary - L11
Velites - L1

As I say even on the very lowest setting and arcade I still can't beat this one!

Perhaps i should start again - if you were able to win with just four units - I think I need some help!

Keith

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Post by pgeerkens » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:17 pm

With the exception of one L19 spearman and your cavalry on the far left, do you start everyone else on long hold?

You are light on missilers for this scenario, with only 3 Skirms and 1 Velite. You might want to go back a half-dozen or so scenarios and get a pair of archers up to level 6 (extra arrows upgrade). Other than that your army looks all right. Remember also that Boots are a luxurious upgrade, to be picked up only when your army has nothing else useful to buy, and that at Level 5/6 you are getting into diminishing returns on most (all?) equipment items.

(Remember, when I win this one with 4 units that those four units have been acquiring mucho experience points against Normal opponents in every battle to date - I didn't just switch to Normal for this battle.)
Last edited by pgeerkens on Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

pgeerkens
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Post by pgeerkens » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:19 pm

With the exception of one L19 spearman and your cavalry on the far left, do you start everyone else on long hold?

You are light on missilers for this scenario, with only 3 Skirms and 1 Velite. You might want to go back a half-dozen or so scenarios and get a pair of archers up to level 6 (extra arrows upgrade). Other than that your army looks all right. Remember also that Boots are a luxurious upgrade, to be picked up only when your army has nothing else useful to buy, and that at Level 5/6 you are getting into diminishing returns on most (all?) equipment items.

A couple of other notes:
- Principes are generally regarded as the best bang-for-buck among the disciplined heavy infantry. I buy one Hastati and then some number of Principes (varies whether I buy a Trari or not).
- 3 Spearman is excessive in the anti-cav department. I buy only 1, and sometimes one Triari.
- Have you picked up the Disciplined Formations for all your infantry? This is the single-most valuable upgrade they get.

(Remember, when I win this one with 4 units that those four units have been acquiring mucho experience points against Normal opponents in every battle to date - I didn't just switch to Normal for this battle. They are all at levels 50+ by now.)
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

keithp
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Post by keithp » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:43 pm

OK thanks, again.

I will try you your idea about long hold, but I think I might go back a few games as you say. Your ideas sound alright, and now i think about it I did go for boots upgradesa fair bit.

I will post when i win!

Keith

pgeerkens
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Post by pgeerkens » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:04 am

Hi Keith,

Long hold is critical - given enough time, Philip's archers will always slaughter you. By waiting until his army advances, you can end-run his infantry with your cavalry and first distract, then slaughter, his archers. Also, your missilers (of any stripe) will be much more effective against his heavy infantry if they are in rough -a second reaosn to let him advance toward you.

Don't be fooled by the time limit - it's a red herring in this scenario.

Bon chance!

Pieter
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

keithp
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Post by keithp » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:52 pm

Hi,

Well I think I will never win this!

Its always the same, there is just one enemy unit left - the L17 infantry! No matter what I try, they are always left, and then its time-out.

Thanks for the advice though.

I will back track and start again.

Keith

pgeerkens
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Post by pgeerkens » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:25 pm

Are you targeting your missilers on Philip's toughest heavies, once they are in the rough?
"Even on the attack, the spade is the equal of the rifle." Erwin Rommel
Caesar & "Marius' Mules" would agree.

keithp
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Post by keithp » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:26 pm

Hi Again,

Ok this is how I have played it:

I follow your set up as above, only the spearman on the left charge and always beat the cav. On the right side the spearman beat that cav too. The two light infantry units that advance get taken out by the light infantry in the middle. Then I move the two ca units from the left to the top left, then flank the two units of archers - always winning.

At this stage the enemy units left have started to move forward, so I move the infnatry units to the ridge, then I move the cav units to the rear of the enemy, about this time most of the units are now committed in two small battles and its a slog to the finish! I send in the cav and in most cases the left hand battle is won, there is about 40 sec left. The right hand battle is still on going, and the L17 unit always has over 40 troops left. At this stag I just use 'signal' and send the lot in! But the seconds are ticking by..and even though I put the lot in, I can't beat them.

I really can't think what else to try?

Thanks anyhow.

Keith

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