fall back

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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jomni
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fall back

Post by jomni » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:21 am

Is Falling Back a unit-specific move or can anyone perform it? I'm find some units prefer to turn and move as normal. Unless I'm doing something wrong.

kdonovan
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Re: fall back

Post by kdonovan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:43 am

Maybe lights can move, others have to fall back.
Also, it seems you can fall back when in a ZOC, even though you can't otherwise move away from the ZOCer.

rbodleyscott
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Re: fall back

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:03 am

kdonovan wrote:Maybe lights can move, others have to fall back.
Correct.
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jomni
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Re: fall back

Post by jomni » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:16 am

Thanks so light units will move as normal and i have to manually change facing afterwards?

rbodleyscott
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Re: fall back

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:29 am

jomni wrote:Thanks so light units will move as normal and i have to manually change facing afterwards?
Yep
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KateMicucci
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Re: fall back

Post by KateMicucci » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:50 am

The cohesion test for falling back is too harsh. It doesn't seem right that units who are almost at full strength should fall from "disrupted" to "routed" just from using the fall back command. Falling back when within enemy charge range seems like something that you should NEVER do on anything but elite units because everyone else always spectacularly fails their cohesion tests.

It would also be useful if the UI indicated when using the command will cause a cohesion test instead of having to guess whether the unit is within charge range.

Miletus
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Re: fall back

Post by Miletus » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:14 pm

KateMicucci wrote:It would also be useful if the UI indicated when using the command will cause a cohesion test instead of having to guess whether the unit is within charge range.
I'm pretty sure it does, if you have the relevant bit of the UI switched on? Certainly when I'm playing I get a warning when I mouse-move over the 'fall back' pointer...
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TheGrayMouser
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Re: fall back

Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:20 pm

KateMicucci wrote:The cohesion test for falling back is too harsh. It doesn't seem right that units who are almost at full strength should fall from "disrupted" to "routed" just from using the fall back command. Falling back when within enemy charge range seems like something that you should NEVER do on anything but elite units because everyone else always spectacularly fails their cohesion tests.

It would also be useful if the UI indicated when using the command will cause a cohesion test instead of having to guess whether the unit is within charge range.
I am petty sure a unit cannot lose two cohesion levels when falling back (of course it could have been shot at by reaction fire in the process perhaps?)
There are no additional mal modifiers for falling back.

rbodleyscott
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Re: fall back

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:32 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
KateMicucci wrote:The cohesion test for falling back is too harsh. It doesn't seem right that units who are almost at full strength should fall from "disrupted" to "routed" just from using the fall back command. Falling back when within enemy charge range seems like something that you should NEVER do on anything but elite units because everyone else always spectacularly fails their cohesion tests.

It would also be useful if the UI indicated when using the command will cause a cohesion test instead of having to guess whether the unit is within charge range.
I am petty sure a unit cannot lose two cohesion levels when falling back
It can if it scores 2 overall (1 in 36 chance if no modifiers apply, 1 in 12 chance if already disrupted, 1 in 6 if disrupted and already lost 25% - all these for Average troops. Superior troops have much lower chance of double drop)
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TheGrayMouser
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Re: fall back

Post by TheGrayMouser » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:50 pm

I am petty sure a unit cannot lose two cohesion levels when falling back
It can if it scores 2 overall (1 in 36 chance if no modifiers apply, 1 in 12 chance if already disrupted, 1 in 6 if disrupted and already lost 25%)
AAHH, good to know!

KateMicucci
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Re: fall back

Post by KateMicucci » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Miletus wrote:
KateMicucci wrote:It would also be useful if the UI indicated when using the command will cause a cohesion test instead of having to guess whether the unit is within charge range.
I'm pretty sure it does, if you have the relevant bit of the UI switched on? Certainly when I'm playing I get a warning when I mouse-move over the 'fall back' pointer...
I don't see anything that indicates whether falling back will cause a cohesion test or not.

flatsix518
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Re: fall back

Post by flatsix518 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:48 pm

Typically, when you select the fall back square, two flags pop up, -- one for fall back and the other for turning.

When you hover over the fall back flag -- read the entire message. It indicates there could be a cohesion loss.

John

KateMicucci
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Re: fall back

Post by KateMicucci » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:27 pm

That there COULD be. I already know that. I want to know when there's going to be a cohesion test, because it's not always clear when a unit is within enemy charge range.

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Re: fall back

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:30 pm

I would think it says "could" because it is referring to the possibility of a cohesions loss (depends on the random number, etc.) and not whether there "could" be a cohesion test.
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Re: fall back

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:34 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:I would think it says "could" because it is referring to the possibility of a cohesions loss (depends on the random number, etc.) and not whether there "could" be a cohesion test.
Actually KateMicucci is correct that there "could" be a cohesion test. But charge distances are hardly mysterious. Nevertheless, if there is some uncertainty, that is surely more realistic than the alternative.
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nikgaukroger
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Re: fall back

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:44 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:I would think it says "could" because it is referring to the possibility of a cohesions loss (depends on the random number, etc.) and not whether there "could" be a cohesion test.
Actually KateMicucci is correct that there "could" be a cohesion test. But charge distances are hardly mysterious. Nevertheless, if there is some uncertainty, that is surely more realistic than the alternative.
Indeed - I just noticed I was talking rubbish when I was considering a fall back in a game :lol:

Personally I'm OK with how it currently is.
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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KateMicucci
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Re: fall back

Post by KateMicucci » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:53 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:I would think it says "could" because it is referring to the possibility of a cohesions loss (depends on the random number, etc.) and not whether there "could" be a cohesion test.
Actually KateMicucci is correct that there "could" be a cohesion test. But charge distances are hardly mysterious. Nevertheless, if there is some uncertainty, that is surely more realistic than the alternative.
Not simulating uncertainty so much as tedium.

Just make the fall back flag yellow when falling back is going to cause a cohesion test. I don't see why a more informative UI should be a controversial change? It's a pain to check each of a dozen units when it involves counting AP, diagonal movements and facing, and then even more of a pain when cavalry comes into it.

I've had units drop cohesion tests on fall back even when there was no obvious enemy who could charge them. Or when there was an enemy in "charge range" but they wouldn't actually be able to charge because there were blockers in front of them.

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Re: fall back

Post by Miletus » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:39 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Personally I'm OK with how it currently is.
Me too.

Anyway, change the flag to yellow and someone will post about how it's the wrong shade of yellow, or how they would have preferred a cooler colour. A bit like that scene in Reservoir Dogs... :lol:
Cheers,
Miletus.

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just answer the door already!"

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Re: fall back

Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:24 pm

KateMicucci wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:I would think it says "could" because it is referring to the possibility of a cohesions loss (depends on the random number, etc.) and not whether there "could" be a cohesion test.
Actually KateMicucci is correct that there "could" be a cohesion test. But charge distances are hardly mysterious. Nevertheless, if there is some uncertainty, that is surely more realistic than the alternative.
Not simulating uncertainty so much as tedium.

Just make the fall back flag yellow when falling back is going to cause a cohesion test. I don't see why a more informative UI should be a controversial change? It's a pain to check each of a dozen units when it involves counting AP, diagonal movements and facing, and then even more of a pain when cavalry comes into it.

I've had units drop cohesion tests on fall back even when there was no obvious enemy who could charge them. Or when there was an enemy in "charge range" but they wouldn't actually be able to charge because there were blockers in front of them.
One thing that could make implementing a warning difficult is WHEN does the game calculate if a cohesion test is needed. Obviosly if the unit is currently in in a grid that could be charged it needs test.. However, what if said unit is in a grid that it doesn't need to test but the fall back move one grid puts it in a situation? What if falling back one grid the unit is in the clear but the second grid could cause the test!. (to be honest, not sure if you can even fall back if the fall back target grid is "chargable to an enemy unit...) You might need 3 colour codes haha.

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