epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

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Galdred
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epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:45 pm

As other pointed out, there are a few discreprancies between Armageddon 40k and the tabletop weapons. I don't play 40k, but I was an epic player before, so I thought it could be interesting comparing the weapons to their epic 40k versions :

epic Armageddon system is quite direct :
when you shoot at something in range, you hit if you roll AT value or more on a D6 if it is a vehicle, AP value or more on D6 for infantry squad.
It is destroyed ( or damaged for super heavy or titans) unless it passes its save (usually 4+ on D6, with a second 4+ roll if failed for reinforced armor like Titans, Leman Russ, Land Raider).
Some weapons are macro weapons : They bypass the first armor save (so reinforced armor has 4+ save against them, and normal armor no save).
Other are Titan killer : they auto inflict damage, and cause D3 or D6 damages.

Here are the values next to the epic Armageddon characteristics (only Imperial Guard and Space Marines yet) :

Code: Select all

Ripper_gun	0	0	100	-10	35	25	2	6				MW				+1 att melee	
Sniper	        2	4	100	-10	40	0	1	6		     30			5			sniper	
Heavy_Stubber	0	2	100	-10	30	0	3	10		     30			6				
Heavy_Bolter	0	3	100	-10	40	0	2	10		     30			5				
Vulcan_Mega-B	0	4	100	-10	50	0	10	8		     45	4	5	3				
Lascannon  	1	3	100	-10	80	0	1	8	 	     45		5					
2_Lascannons	1	3	100	-10	80	0	2	8		     45		4				twin linked lasscannon	
Multi-laser	        1	3	100	-10	20	0	3	6		     30		6	5				
Autocannon	1	3	100	-10	35	0	2	7		     45		6	5				
Battle_Cannon	1	4	100	-10	70	0	1	7		     75		4	4				
Demolisher_Ca	2	2	100	-10	90	20	1	5	Siege	     30		4	3			ignores cover	
Vanquisher_Ca	1	4	100	-10	70	30	1	7		     75		2	4				
Plasma_Cannon	1	2	100	-10	60	30	2	8		     30		5	4				
Baneblade_Can	1	4	100	-10	80	40	1	6		      75		4	4				
Heavy_Mortar	2	3	100	0	50	10	2	5	Indirect, Siege	30						1BP, indirect	
Medusa_Siege_	2	2	100	0	90	20	1	4	Siege								
Heavy_Siege_M	2	4	100	0	60	20	1	4	Bulky, Indirect, Siege	45						2 BP, slow, indirect	
Earthshaker_C	3	6	100	0	40	20	2	5	Bulky, Indirect, Siege	120		4	4			Or 1 BP,indirect	
Deathstrike_Mi	4	7	100	0	100	50	1	3	Area, Bulky, Indirect	unlimited		MW2				TKD6,one shot	
Inferno_Cannon	1	2	100	-10	50	0	3	6	Terror, Siege	30			3			ignores cover	
Missile_Launche	1	3	100	-10	75	35	1	4		        45		6	5				
Apocalypse_Mis	3	7	100	0	75	20	1	4	Area, Bulky, Indirect	60						3BP	
4_Manticore_Mi	3	5	100	0	40	25	1	4	Indirect	150						2 BP, slow firing	
Quake_Cannon	3	7	100	-10	90	25	1	5		        90		MW				3BP, MW	
Plasma_Blastgu	1	4	100	-10	120	50	2	5		        45	2	MW2				slow	
Laser_Blaster	1	4	100	-10	100	50	3	6		        60	4	3	5				
Gatling_Blaster	1	4	100	-10	90	50	4	6	Bulky	60	4	4	4				
Volcano_Canno	1	4	100	-10	150	50	1	5	Bulky	120		MW2				TKD3	
Assault_Cannon	0	2	100	-10	40	0	4	10		        30		5	5				
It is hard to compare AT values of artillery there, as epic uses the same table for all artillery pieces (hence why they have barrage points instead of a to hit value). Most values seem coherent, except the titan weapons :

The volcano cannon has a lousy range compared to epic Volcano :
it has twice the range of the Gatling Blaster and Laser Blaster in epic(it is basically a titan sniping weapon), but ends with the same here. It is also much more powerful than the other titan weapons in the anti titan department thanks to its TKD3 weapon (no save if hit, D3 damage), but there, I don't have enough information to compare : it has the highest value, but I don't know how it fares against the Plasma Blastgun (2 shots), the Gatling Blaster (4 shots) or the Laser Blaster(3 shots). I suppose with multiple hit chance, it still would come ahead against heavy armor, but the 50% AP of the other weapons will also let them bypass armor very often.
The laser Blaster and Gatling are more or less on par with dual twin linked lascannon or dual battlecannon in Epic. The 50%AP they get there seems a bit much. The Bulky characteristics definitely is a handicap for the volcano (unless it allows retaliation against Titan and Super heavy, then it would be an advantage instead).

Another weird thing is the Warlord titan has only 2 weapons, against 4 in epic.

Rudankort
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:58 pm

Interesting table, thanks for putting it together. But a bit hard to read. :)

PS. Warlord titan will likely be dropped from 1.0, but it will make an appearance later.

Galdred
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:15 pm

I have a ods version of the table. But I cannot upload it. Where can I send it?

Too bad about the warlord. It always was part of my epic force :-(

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:23 pm

You can sent it to me, rudankort@rsdn.ru.

Galdred
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:52 am

Sent :)
Another thing I noticed from the unit stats is that guard anti tank squad seems a bit too strong : 75 AP 35 is better than the vanquisher 70 AP 30, and that's for an unit of 10. AT infantry in Epic sure is not that strong (they have the AT firepower of 2 specialized AT tank platoons, for 300 cost).

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:07 am

Got it, thanks. Keep posting any unusual things you spot.

About IG anti-tank squad, we assumed they were using Krak missiles, 8 strength and 3AP in the Codex (Vanquisher cannon is strength 8 AP2). Vanquisher has been adjusted to a higher AP value in our tables, so I think the right balance has been restored. As for the rest, we wanted at least one really potent anti-tank infantry unit in the game, and this unit should fit the role. Infantry is tricky to use against tanks, because retaliation can be pretty crippling. But if you can find a good position in the cover, you can be more successful.

Galdred
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:58 am

You are right, the problem lies not so much with the missile themselves, but with the fact that the AT platoon can field 10 of them.

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by thepuffin » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:05 am

Just to add to that, why would you arm your anti-tank team with missile launchers (Str 8, AP3) instead of Lascannon (Str 9, AP2) or Multi-melta (Str 8, AP2, Melta) which are both way more effective versus tanks? Even Autocannons (Str 7, AP4) are better against light armour than Krak Missiles due to their higher rate of fire. The primary advantage of Missile Launchers is that they have the flexibility to switch between Frag, Krak and Flak depending upon the type of target they need to shoot. Does that sound like a dedicated AT unit to you?

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:26 am

And can some weapons kill several soldiers in one shot? I found the hellhound to be underwhelming for instance. Even artillery seems a bit underwhelming against infantry compared to heavy bolters or similar weapons(but the longer range and disrupt chance probably make up for this).

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:11 am

Galdred wrote:You are right, the problem lies not so much with the missile themselves, but with the fact that the AT platoon can field 10 of them.
Well, that'a all relative. Thus, Lemas Russ is at strength 5 in this game, but they can carry multiple weapons each, like 3 lascannons or battle cannon plus lascannon, not counting heavy bolters. And they are better protected at the same time.
thepuffin wrote:Just to add to that, why would you arm your anti-tank team with missile launchers (Str 8, AP3) instead of Lascannon (Str 9, AP2) or Multi-melta (Str 8, AP2, Melta) which are both way more effective versus tanks? Even Autocannons (Str 7, AP4) are better against light armour than Krak Missiles due to their higher rate of fire. The primary advantage of Missile Launchers is that they have the flexibility to switch between Frag, Krak and Flak depending upon the type of target they need to shoot. Does that sound like a dedicated AT unit to you?
I don't disagree with this. Let's say, we've ended up with launchers instead of lascannons/multi-meltas for historical reasons. :)
Galdred wrote:And can some weapons kill several soldiers in one shot?
Depends on what "shot" you mean. You need a separate shot to kill a separate entity, be it soldier or vehicle. But some weapons can make multiple shots per attack, and in that case they can definitely kill several soldiers.

Galdred
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:24 am

I was specifically talking about a single shot (as in the weapon stats).
Would it be possible to add sone 'splash' to kill multiple target depending on unit size on explosive weapons? That would give a reason for the Imperium to field smaller units, and make anti infantry weapon that are not MG equivalent better. It is weird that artillery can only kill one unit per shot, even when targetting tightly packed ork warbands.
Currently, artillery seems better to me against armor than infantry (the extra range helps more against armor, and the low number of shots is not an issue. The suppression is equally useful against both).

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Kerensky » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:44 am

There was a plan for area effects and an area trait. Whether or not this will make it into 1.0 or not is uncertain though.

Galdred
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Galdred » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:28 pm

Something like blast = 1 shot per X target strength(10?) would help artillery not be so useless against infantry, and help mitigate the big unit problems(at least give a reason to use smaller units).

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:56 pm

Galdred wrote:Something like blast = 1 shot per X target strength(10?) would help artillery not be so useless against infantry, and help mitigate the big unit problems(at least give a reason to use smaller units).
Actually, I quite like this suggestion.

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by vadersson » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:16 pm

Hey gang,

I have to agree on the Artillery and Blast weapon stuff. Right now Artillery is pretty underwhelming.

Would it be possibile to get some sort of excel data sheet for all the weapon values? I keep a spreadsheet of all the Codex data on weapons for 40K and I would love to compare them. I can compile the data from the game, but it would sure be faster if you guys can share. I still think there are a few oddities based on what I have seen. (How are Lascannons such great infantry killers?)

Thanks,
Duncan (Mr. Spreadsheet.)
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Kerensky » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:00 pm

Seems to boil down to two points. Rate of fire, and cover.

Rate of fire, a stat not currently visible in game, is a pretty huge multiplier for weaponry. This is why the Heavy Bolter support units or things like the Marcharius Vulcan do some spectacular damage to infantry units even though their actual unit size is pretty small. 10 unit count with 4 rate of fire is 40 shots, and 40 shots, have the potential to destroy 40 strength count worth of infantry. That should never happen with accuracy and defense coming into play, but that is how rate of fire works.

The other system is cover. Infantry without cover are extremely vulnerable to being hit, and most infantry when hit by any weapon at all will be killed by a connecting shot. I don't recall a situation where Lascannon is good against infantry (units with lascannon have low unit totals and a rate of fire of only 1) but if you provide specific examples I'm willing to bet it isn't the Lascannon that is the culprit, more likely it is other weapon systems coming into play (many units have multiple weapon systems and if they can fire, they always all fire) and a combination of infantry being outside of cover.

I have never seen a unit with only a Lascannon do significant damage to infantry (example Sentinel vs Slugga Boyz) but the Leman Russ Annihilator can tear up a Slugga Boyz unit without cover because it doesn't just fire a Lascannon, it fires twin lascannon, an additional hull mounted lascannon, and 2 heavy bolter shots as well.

Base unit size 5 makes 5 shots for linked lascannons, plus 5 shots for the hull mount lascannon, plus 10 more shots generated by the 2 heavy bolters. For a total of 20 shots, and 20 total shots can do a pretty significant damage to an infantry formation if a lot of those shots connect.

Which is why infantry have the cover systems to protect them from this number of shots destroying half of their number. It is also why special non-assault anti infantry weapons, like the Vulcan Mega Bolter, put out an extraordinary amount of shots (rate of fire 10!) because the sheer number of shots being generated is a counter balance to the high evasion that mitigates the 20 shot output of a Leman Russ Annihilator.

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by vadersson » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:32 pm

FYI, the specific time I saw with Lascannons tearing up infantry was in the Tutorial Bridge crossing. I had a Heavy Bolter support squad, a Special Weapons Squad with flamers, and a regular infantry squad attack a weakened laser destroyer on the bridge. I think there were maybe 4 destroyers left and all my infantry were half strength or (5 for the bolters, 10 for the flamers.) I think all units were about in orange level moral. I was generally firing from on the bridge and both of those units were destroyed completely by retaliation fire from the destroyer. I killed no destroyers. It also seems that upgraded Leman Russ are very effective against infantry two with just 1 Battlecannon and 2 lascannons. I have no empirical evidence to back that one up however...

Thanks for the comments. I still think I will make a spreadsheet to compare some things.

Thanks,
Duncan
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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Kerensky » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:41 pm

vadersson wrote: It also seems that upgraded Leman Russ are very effective against infantry two with just 1 Battlecannon and 2 lascannons. I have no empirical evidence to back that one up however...

Thanks,
Duncan
Kerensky wrote: but if you provide specific examples I'm willing to bet it isn't the Lascannon that is the culprit, more likely it is other weapon systems coming into play (many units have multiple weapon systems and if they can fire, they always all fire) and a combination of infantry being outside of cover.

I have never seen a unit with only a Lascannon do significant damage to infantry (example Sentinel vs Slugga Boyz) but the Leman Russ Annihilator can tear up a Slugga Boyz unit without cover because it doesn't just fire a Lascannon, it fires twin lascannon, an additional hull mounted lascannon, and 2 heavy bolter shots as well.
;)

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Kerensky » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:46 pm

By the way, while the game does not have a combat log to analyze exact results, such a function does exist in the editor (EDIT -> UNIT EDITOR -> COMBAT SIMULATOR). There is a detailed combat simulator with many configuration settings, and a combat log tab that documents every part of combat in precise detail.

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Re: epic Armageddon and Warhammer 40K Armageddon weapons

Post by Rudankort » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:47 am

Kerensky wrote:By the way, while the game does not have a combat log to analyze exact results, such a function does exist in the editor (EDIT -> UNIT EDITOR -> COMBAT SIMULATOR). There is a detailed combat simulator with many configuration settings, and a combat log tab that documents every part of combat in precise detail.
Combat log exists in the game, sort of. It's not integrated to UI as in Panzer Corps, but logs of each combat are written to game's log folder (%My Documents%\My Games\Warhammer 40,000 Armageddon\ Log).

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