Combat prognosis in ship battle

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Gunja
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Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Gunja » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:44 pm

I installed the 3.4.2. patch and noticed something, that seems strange to me. In the combat prognosis for a naval attack the combat prognosis does not take into account the movement penalty for my ship. What I mean is this: when I move my ship closer to the enemy before shooting, I get a movement penalty. As indicated in the manual on page 42 of the English version the combat prognosis should reflect this. And I seem to remember that it did so before installing the patch. Now it shows only the combat prediction for the attack, as if the ship would be already in the closer position. So before moving closer to the enemy it shows me a ridicolous high prognosis. After I move the ship closer to the enemy, than the predictions changes and is now of course far lower,, but since I cannot take back the movement I have to guess what will be my chances after movement...
Did anyone else have the same experience or am I the only one? Did I remember it wrong and it has been always the way it is now? In any case it is nothing game breaking of course, but still it would be nice, if this could get fixed.

AceDuceTrey
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by AceDuceTrey » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:34 pm

Yes, In reality, combat results should IMPROVE when moving in closer and is within "direct fire" range (i.e. within Range/3). Otherwise keep the same range
to the target or get penalized. Actually, I really don't like combat results predictions anyway- they should be learned through experience.

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:22 pm

That may be a valid argument, ADT, but the designers intended that a ship should be ready to fire when firing, not rushing toward a target and then firing with the same efficiency. What Gunja said about a movement penalty, as described in the manual on page 42, is still in effect. That is, "When ships increase or decrease the distance toward a specific target before firing, its attack capability will be decreased." (Emphasis added by me; page shown below.)
2017-07-13_01.jpg
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What did change, and what is not in the manual (yet) is the following from AlbertoC's announcement of new naval features in Kriegsmarine:
Firing efficiency & Hit avoidance

This new mechanic will completely alter how naval combat is played out in the Order of Battle series. Now both movement and range will play a role in damage calculation.

The mechanics already existing in the game dictate that, in order to maximize your damage output, a ship that moves before firing must keep the same distance between itself and its target at the start of the turn and after the move. Basically, if the range stays the same before and after you move your ship, you will have maximized your firing efficiency as you won’t need to calibrate your guns and present the full broadside to the enemy at all times.

This is now combined with new mechanic: By keeping your ship on the run, you make it harder to hit. The more movement points you spend in a turn, the more hit avoidance you will have, and the enemy will deal less damage to you.

The trick is to try to keep the same range between you and your target when firing, but move as much as you can so that you won’t be a sitting duck! In a larger scale naval battle, the trick is to move as much as possible and outside of the effective range of most enemy warships, while still maintaining the same distance to specific targets for maximum firing efficiency.
I'm not sure if this answers your question, Gunja. Please post again if not and we'll see if I or somebody else can provide a better answer.
- Bru

AceDuceTrey
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by AceDuceTrey » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:18 pm

This Kriegsmarine change is an excellent improvement! Keeping the same range to the target does minimize the elevation error and
high speeds maximize the (new) target position error But it still denies the naval tactic of rapidly closing to "point blank" range
where estimating new target position, then calculating azimuth and elevation are reduced to minimal errors; and, weapons effects
(belt and bulkhead armor penetration) are maximized.

Gunja
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Gunja » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:11 am

Thank you for your answers. I am afraid, I was not very clear in my first post. Well, English is not my first (nor my second) language so I will try again. The combat mechanics, as explained by bru888, I understand more or less, even if I did forget about the changes made in the Kriegsmarine expansion. What I don´t understand is solely the combat prognosis. Let take the example on page 42 in the manual.

In the first picture the prognosis is 2:0

In the second picture the prognosis is 2:0, because the range does not change (and with the new expansion this is better because the japanese ship is moving and therefor harder to hit

In the third picture the prognosis is 0+:0, because the range changed.

And in a new turn the prognosis would be probably something like 4:0 because the range to the enemy is much closer.


So in the manual the prognosis reflects the mechanics. In my game the third prognosis would be something like 4:0 before I move the ship and then 0+:0 after I move it, but still in the same turn. So the combat prognosis reflects the more damage due to closer range but it does not reflect the less damage due to movement before shooting.
And my question is, is this intended or a bug?

By the way I really like the combat mechanics...

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:21 pm

Bad news, I'm afraid. Yes, it's evident that combat prognosis has been altered and I don't know if it is operating correctly.

I created a scenario to test two cruisers, trying to recreate what we see in the manual. I was not worried about not seeing exactly a damage factor of 2 at first; maybe there was another factor involved in the manual demonstration, like relative battle experience:
2017-07-14_01.jpg
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What did bother me is that the prognosis went UP when I proposed to move TOWARD the target. That is not the way it is described in the manual or in AlbertoC's thread:
2017-07-14_06.jpg
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There was no change for maintaining distance and moving, as expected:
2017-07-14_03.jpg
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To be continued . . .
- Bru

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:27 pm

Firing from that point yielded the same prognosis:
2017-07-14_05.jpg
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But firing from THIS point was not only not what was predicted, there was no penalty for moving toward the target.
2017-07-14_04.jpg
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So now I don't know what to tell either of you guys but I will send a PM to some folks about this. That's all I can do.
- Bru

Andy2012
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:07 pm

@everybody: Yes, I have now seen weird stuff in ship combat prognosis and results as well.

My issue: The prognosis diverges after moving to a hex to attack. I played some US Marines and I noticed some odd changes.
Before, I could test where to move my ships and the combat results from that hex by moving my cursor there. e.g. move closer, 2:0, move further away 0:0.
But now, I get combat results calculated before moving, then move to that hex to attack, but the predictions then change negatively for me.
An example: My mighty DD wants to close in to a Japanese DD, results for a movement closer predict sweet 3:0 damage, then I move there to attack, but the results change to 1:0. So I go from dealing 3 to 1 damage.

Something is broken here. I am guessing the Kriegsmarine mechanics got beaten up or changed within the dlcs. I mean, this makes naval battles kind of unpredictable and removes the whole strategy from this game mechanic. Without useful combat predictions, the whole thing is rather difficult. And I am not talking about some random damage point more or less, predictions change systematically.

Or am I missing things here? Bru?

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:51 pm

Andy2012 wrote:Or am I missing things here? Bru?
I'd say definitely there is a problem but it's not a big one. I think it's the "prognosticator" mechanism itself, not the actual combat results.

This is from Kriegsmarine, Surface Raiders. If I fire now at the HMS Manchester, I will inflict around 3 damage:
Screenshot 1.jpg
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But if I rush at the HMS Manchester, I will inflict even more damage. "Happy day! Für das Fatherland, all ahead flank! Ram speed!"
Screenshot 2.jpg
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"Nein, mein Kapitän. As I told you, when we point our ship directly at the enemy and sail toward him, we cannot bring all our guns to bear on him. (Ach. Blöder dummkopf.)"
Screenshot 3.jpg
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To be continued . . .
- Bru

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Fortunately, the combat result is as expected from the prognostication shown AFTER the movement, not from the prognostication BEFORE the movement. Still, there is the issue that the prognostication before movement is not being calculated properly.
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It's not just Kriegsmarine. This is from U.S. Pacific, Philippine Sea:
Screenshot 1.jpg
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"Men, look at that! If we charge right at him, we'll inflict tons more damage! Let's get this tub moving! All ahead flank! Ram speed!"

"But, Captain . . ." You know the rest of the story. Same ending. :)
Screenshot 3.jpg
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I want to thank Gunja for bringing this up. I played Kriegsmarine and I did not even notice this. :oops:

Well, I have sent PMs to certain officials. I have seen that, while there may not be much interaction in this forum on some issues, they are noticed and do get corrected if necessary in future patches.
- Bru

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:40 pm

bru888 wrote:I want to thank Gunja for bringing this up. I played Kriegsmarine and I did not even notice this. :oops:
You know, I'll leave that "Oops, embarrassed" face up there but I will give myself some credit. The reason why I did not notice this in Kriegsmarine is probably from my previous "basic training" in that I knew not to move toward an enemy ship in order to increase my battle odds if firing in the same turn. I didn't do it out of habit! You believe this, yes? :roll:
- Bru

Andy2012
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:47 pm

bru888 wrote:
bru888 wrote:I want to thank Gunja for bringing this up. I played Kriegsmarine and I did not even notice this. :oops:
You know, I'll leave that "Oops, embarrassed" face up there but I will give myself some credit. The reason why I did not notice this in Kriegsmarine is probably from my previous "basic training" in that I knew not to move toward an enemy ship in order to increase my battle odds if firing in the same turn. I didn't do it out of habit! You believe this, yes? :roll:
To be fair, this was not in the original KM release. Only noticed it today. Must have been with a recent patch. Doesnt break everything, but still...

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:03 pm

Andy2012 wrote:To be fair, this was not in the original KM release. Only noticed it today. Must have been with a recent patch. Doesnt break everything, but still...
Let's see if they fix it in the next patch. If not, you and I will remember to come back here and bump the thread.
- Bru

Gunja
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Gunja » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Bru and Andy - thank you for your help. And as you said, since it affects only the prognosis, it really is only a minor issue. I am nevertheless of course happy to hear that it will be fixed in one of the next patches.
By the way it took me a bit to figure it out, because I knew the mechanics. So at first I didn´t want to come closer but there was this one moment, when I thought: "What the heck, I will attack now and finish them off next round". Then I looked at the prognosis and the inner monologue that followed was quite similar to what Bru last posted about the Kapitän gone crazy... :wink:

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:29 pm

Gunja wrote:Bru and Andy - thank you for your help. And as you said, since it affects only the prognosis, it really is only a minor issue. I am nevertheless of course happy to hear that it will be fixed in one of the next patches.
By the way it took me a bit to figure it out, because I knew the mechanics. So at first I didn´t want to come closer but there was this one moment, when I thought: "What the heck, I will attack now and finish them off next round". Then I looked at the prognosis and the inner monologue that followed was quite similar to what Bru last posted about the Kapitän gone crazy... :wink:
Well, I meant we hope it will be fixed in a future patch and if not, as moderators, Andy or I should remember to bump this thread. We will not know for sure unless an official weighs in here. :wink:

By the way, I thought of you when I made that silly statement about previous "basic training" in that I did not mean to say that you should have known about this in the first place since you are not a noob. Thank goodness you did notice and thought to post here because there may be many a noob who will not know and be confused and disappointed that the game is not doing what it is supposed and described to do.
- Bru

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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by adherbal » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:26 am

Thanks for the extensive testing :) The bug has been fixed for the next patch/update.
Image

bru888
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by bru888 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:01 pm

adherbal wrote:Thanks for the extensive testing :) The bug has been fixed for the next patch/update.
All is truly meet, right, and salutary in the world! [Walks away, whistling.] :D
- Bru

AceDuceTrey
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by AceDuceTrey » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:14 pm

This subject is extremely complex and entire books have been written about it. So I applaud any effort to duplicate it. The only major gripe I have is that the non-phasing ships can't defend themselves or fire back/FIRST when attacked (like land units). In fact, like ground units, the attacking side was typically at a "firing" disadvantage initially as they closed with the enemy- as reflected by your naval movement rules. BBs and BCs should use their main batteries against large ships. The whole purpose for SECONDARY batteries on BBs/BCs was to defend themselves from smaller ships!

ColonelKurtz
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by ColonelKurtz » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:57 am

Still very annoying that you get a prediction for a movement, and then get there and its different. I hope this predictor gets fixed soon

Andy2012
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Re: Combat prognosis in ship battle

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:48 am

ColonelKurtz wrote:Still very annoying that you get a prediction for a movement, and then get there and its different. I hope this predictor gets fixed soon
Yes, I guess it will be included in the Burma Road update. One more week.

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