WinterWar, improvement suggestions

GabeKnight
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WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:48 am

Coming back to this... :wink:
bebro wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:11 pm
GabeKnight wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:55 pm
You're really willing to correct all these little things?
Depends :)
[...]
So bottom line: if we work on stuff anyway and see the chance to quickly add/change things we can just do it, but if there is no actual problem then it will go down the list.
...there are some minor observations I'd like to share about two Winter War DLC missions:

- I think there should be an airfield somewhere mid-map in Raate Road. Didn't I see one in the beta thread? As it is now, all planes have to return to the air-exit-hexes near the map's borders to refuel. The result is a very limited operational range for both mine and the AI's planes due to the "longish" extent of the map as well as rather small fuel reserves.

- after the v716 update, the arty transport (reward unit) works just fine in Raate Road now, but the unit spawn should be corrected/equalised to the other bonus unit IMO. Either do it the same way as with the AT spawn ( :arrow: "capture VP" event = mid-turn) or at turn start, but then, please, on the player's turn start and not the AI's!

- Summa: First of all, I'd like to say that the AI scripting's impressive here and I enjoyed analyzing them triggers. But there's a small issue in the "Soviet AI/Attack routes/Coastal Route: Koivisto" trigger execution that's going to affect all resulting consecutive AI order changes ( :arrow: AI team #5) as well. You could call this an "exploit", but it could happen to all players by chance: Using engineers to lay a minefield on the "Muurila" city hex prevents the AI units to take the town and thus preventing a further advance down the planned route, rendering them inactive. There's no need to defend the whole south-western front anymore. As only AI engineers and heavy infantry units are capable of clearing minefields, I'd suggest to change the turn-12-activated Soviet conscripts to engineers (with transport). All other AI teams/routes worked just fine, as they had either an engineer or heavy inf. unit attached.

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terminator
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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:21 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:48 am
Coming back to this... :wink:

...there are some minor observations I'd like to share about two Winter War DLC missions:

- I think there should be an airfield somewhere mid-map in Raate Road. Didn't I see one in the beta thread? As it is now, all planes have to return to the air-exit-hexes near the map's borders to refuel. The result is a very limited operational range for both mine and the AI's planes due to the "longish" extent of the map as well as rather small fuel reserves.
Once the enemy planes are out of the map to refuel, do they go back on the map ?

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:23 pm

terminator wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:21 pm
Once the enemy planes are out of the map to refuel, do they go back on the map ?
As a player you can re-deploy your planes. And the AI has its own reinforcements routine (spawns), it can not re-deploy planes that have exited.

My point is: You have to fly three turns to get to the action and have max. 1-2 turns to attack the enemy planes until you'll have to turn back because your fuel runs out...

EDIT: For those interested, I've attached the "corrected" Summa scen.
Attachments
5_Summa.rar
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uran21
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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by uran21 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm

Not long ago, a couple of weeks, I replayed the Winter War. It is much more interesting when all the details are forgotten after a long time. Haven't noticed what you observed in Summa but I did notice something similar in some other scenario (let's see can you find where :twisted: ). If I am not mistaken there is also missing image in Tali-Ihantala.

Since I wasn't the one who made the last final touches to scenarios I wanted to make an inquiry before making any changes because after such a long time it is hard to remember who made what and why (autonomy like in Sandstorm is much more preferred by me).

The point is I am also interested in giving a couple of polishing touches to this campaign before the game gets released on console.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:46 pm

uran21 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm
[...] but I did notice something similar in some other scenario (let's see can you find where :twisted: )
I've discovered this by chance only, to be honest, while testing my mod. Suddenly the western flank wasn't attacked anymore and I wanted to see why and thus analyzed the whole scen in the editor. I usually don't do this without reason (e.g. beta testing :wink: )

If you can name the scen, I'll take up the challenge and try to find it (I like puzzles :) ), but I'm definitely not going through the whole campaign with the editor. That seems to be your job now... :P
uran21 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm
The point is I am also interested in giving a couple of polishing touches to this campaign before the game gets released on console.
Then, while you're at it, you could look into this issue reported by Horst: "8_EastKarelia, missing horse-transport to reward-artillery"

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:09 am

Raate Road (7.1.6):

The Secondary Objective "Raid Soviet Supply Trucks" is not perfect for me.

2 comments on this objective :

- The Secondary Objective "Raid Soviet Supply Trucks" will never be validated (no Minor or Major Victory only Victory):

RaateRoad(3).jpg
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- The description of the Secondary Objective "Raid Soviet Supply Trucks" is not completed. To be completed, it should be "Destroying Soviet supplies with infantry, anti-tank guns or tanks will weaken the efficiency of nearby enemy units.":

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uran21
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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by uran21 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:49 pm

GabeKnight wrote: If you can name the scen, I'll take up the challenge and try to find it (I like puzzles :) )
Your puzzle is called Viipuri :lol:
terminator wrote:The Secondary Objective "Raid Soviet Supply Trucks" will never be validated (no Minor or Major Victory only Victory):
Minor or Major Victories make no difference since there is the only Victory and Defeat in this campaign but I agree it is nice if objectives are checked when completed.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:05 am

uran21 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm
Haven't noticed what you observed in Summa but I did notice something similar in some other scenario
[...]
Your puzzle is called Viipuri :lol:
Oh, yes. You could call it that. I mean "something similar", not a puzzle. :P

But it's not thaaaaat bad, shouldn't happen to the "casual" player IMO. If you don't know about it, you can't really exploit it, as this situation should not arise during "normal" play - the Soviet advance is strong and puts a heavy strain on the defender anyways. Either you choose to abandon the VT line or you decide to stay and push back, and in the latter case, the "Phase 2" orders wouldn't matter anyways that much.

Funny thing, during my first playtest trying to exploit it, I ended up like this:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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This campaign is just too much fun - one of my all-time favourites. Up until a few weeks ago I didn't know that you designed this one, too. Good work! And I'm really glad that you're also doing the next one. :mrgreen:

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:37 am

But I get it, if the player chooses to defend one of the four hexes (e.g. "Kuuterselkä" during my (second :wink: ) playtest) of the "Phase 1 Completed" trigger till the end, one does not have to bother defending the whole northern part of the map anymore. And deliberately exploiting this - er, well, weakness in the design :P - breaks the scen completely, there you're right.

Concentrating all my forces in one location made the whole mission fundamentally easier. Even with spare 6 airCP and 17 landCP from the beginning, completing with all objectives checked was no problem. Even got the reward-T34 on the very last turn. :lol:
All the forces protecting the VTK line weren't really needed - except to fend off some intermittent attacks on the only unnamed secondary VP town hex...

And BTW, the "Soviet Ground Attack\Artillery Support 1\C Artillery" trigger's missing the hex-definition ("unit near hex").

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by uran21 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:31 am

Yeah, the casual player will not get into this situation but it can spoil replay fun for experienced players. When the campaign was made it was always tested on the hardest difficulty and mechanics and tactics used were new to me. In the recent replay on normal difficulty, I naturally set defense in depth and rotated troops on Finnish right flank and found this exploit by accident.

The whole process of replaying campaign reminded me how I just adore defensive battles in OoB. It can provide for so much dramatic and tense experience.

And congratulations on observation skills :wink:

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:22 am

Artic Fox : is this a Bug :?:

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:17 am

Artic Fox (2) :

Always as frustrating to have completed a secondary objective (I received the unit bonus) but not validated at the end :

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Horst
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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:32 am

WW Artic Fox: it's been a (too) long time that I have played through Winter War again and forgot about this issue.
The Set Objective State effect is missing to complete the objective in the OT-130 Captured trigger.
I'm going to report it in the subforum.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:39 am

East Karelia :

Is the Secondary Objective "Artillery damage in 10 turns = 40" achievable :?:

40 damage in 10 turns = 4 damage by turn :!:

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And the Bonus Unit is a 105 K/13 with None Transport Type -> Completely unusable unit :(
(It is impossible to purchase a Transport for this bonus unit)

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:arrow: in summary, impossible secondary objective and unusable bonus unit :(

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:51 pm

terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:17 am
Artic Fox (2) :
Always as frustrating to have completed a secondary objective (I received the unit bonus) but not validated at the end :
Agree. I hope this will be looked after, too. On top of that, it's a real easy fix.
terminator wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:39 am
East Karelia :
Is the Secondary Objective "Artillery damage in 10 turns = 40" achievable :?:
:arrow: in summary, impossible secondary objective [...] :(
Sorry, but I don't agree here. It may be a bit difficult in middle difficulty, it may be a lot more difficult in lower difficulties and for sure it's super easy with the highest difficulty setting - but in no way "impossible". Actually, in my opinion, not hard to achieve at all. I wouldn't change it.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 am

East Karelia, the Secondary Objective "Artillery damage in 10 turns = 40" :

For the bonus unit 105K/13 without any transport, finally, it is the same "bug" as in Raate Road mission with the 122mm M1938 without any transport. Has anyone ever flagged it as a bug :?:

I simulated with the editor this unusable bonus unit :

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GabeKnight wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:51 pm
terminator wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:39 am
East Karelia :
Is the Secondary Objective "Artillery damage in 10 turns = 40" achievable :?:
:arrow: in summary, impossible secondary objective [...] :(
Sorry, but I don't agree here. It may be a bit difficult in middle difficulty, it may be a lot more difficult in lower difficulties and for sure it's super easy with the highest difficulty setting - but in no way "impossible". Actually, in my opinion, not hard to achieve at all. I wouldn't change it.
I do not understand, this secondary objective is more difficult in lower difficulty and super easy in highest difficulty setting :?:

How did you arrived to validate this objective ? I have tried with 3 artillery units in middle difficulty and I did not arrived :( (40 damage in 10 turns = 4 damage by turn :!:)

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:26 am

I'm not sure anymore, but at the time of Winter War DLC release, the (vanilla) artillery damage was still higher; or at least still more powerful after units get damaged.
Deploying at least 4 artillery units is possibly better. You have to reserve some squishy AI units with low bomb-def only for your arty and let the AI keep repairing them until you have enough damage.

Aux units can't be upgraded. That's a default rule. I've also added a horse-transport to this reward arty.
This is absolutely not the only cases of towed units without transports, as map designers seem to enjoy saving some work without common sense. The AI isn't that totally stupid using towed units with attached transport.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:37 am

terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 am
For the bonus unit 105K/13 without any transport, finally, it is the same "bug" as in Raate Road mission with the 122mm M1938 without any transport. Has anyone ever flagged it as a bug :?:
:arrow:
GabeKnight wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:46 pm
Then, while you're at it, you could look into this issue reported by Horst: "8_EastKarelia, missing horse-transport to reward-artillery"
I did mention it in the above post and hope that uran has taken notice :?:

terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 am
I do not understand, this secondary objective is more difficult in lower difficulty and super easy in highest difficulty setting :?:
Sure, the arty damage is similar to fighter plane damage done. It's mainly "procentual". Meaning that the more health an unit has the more damage does an arty hit do.
With lower difficulty, the enemy has fewer health and thus it's more difficult to achieve 40 damage. With the highest difficulty (13 HP), you can hit the same unit twice for about the same amount of damage each time. For example:

Lowest diff, enemy AA unit 6HP:
- first hit ~2 HP damage
- next hit and all after that ~1 HP damage

Highest diff, enemy AA unit 13 HP:
- first hit ~3 HP damage
- second hit ~3 HP damage
- third hit ~2 HP damage
- and so on... you get my point?
terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 am
How did you arrived to validate this objective ? I have tried with 3 artillery units in middle difficulty and I did not arrived :( (40 damage in 10 turns = 4 damage by turn :!:)
Better use four :wink:
(You have enough command points and no tanks and no (proper) AT to invest them in. What else do you buy? :twisted: )

Also, and I'm sure you know this already: Attack enemy AA, AT and arty units for max. damage and, more importantly, try to use your arty on units on open ground that are attacking and not dug-in.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:00 pm

Arty damage gets really terrible the lower the strength becomes:
DTypes.jpg
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Arty will run out of efficiency before ever fully destroying a unit; at least starting with 0-xp. My tests are normally only done on medium-diff with 10-strength units. I don't get smart of the code if it comes to all the many combat variables.
I wish the naval "arty" damage would behave the same though, as it is simply too powerful.

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Re: WinterWar, improvement suggestions

Post by terminator » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:34 pm

Horst wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:26 am
I'm not sure anymore, but at the time of Winter War DLC release, the (vanilla) artillery damage was still higher; or at least still more powerful after units get damaged.
Deploying at least 4 artillery units is possibly better. You have to reserve some squishy AI units with low bomb-def only for your arty and let the AI keep repairing them until you have enough damage.

Aux units can't be upgraded. That's a default rule. I've also added a horse-transport to this reward arty.
This is absolutely not the only cases of towed units without transports, as map designers seem to enjoy saving some work without common sense. The AI isn't that totally stupid using towed units with attached transport.
You're right with noCore Unit and upgrade but it doesn’t solve all the problems : you need 1 CP and enough RP to add a truck.
Too many constraints for so much effort, it’s like some toys that work with batteries but batteries are not supplied with :(

So you need 4 artillery units to receive another artillery unit but what are we gonna do with all these artillery units :?:

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