Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

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steevodeevo
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Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by steevodeevo » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:37 pm

Hi,

I've played through this scenario in a previous run with success. Today I have played through twice and i'm pretty sure I have met the conditions and both times the game ended in Defeat after turn 15.

The second run through I played a very defensive game, I didn't go for the secondary objectives, but ensured I met the primaries fully and yet I still lost. I'm a bit baffled.

The only thing I can think of is that the requirement for 'holding of the secondary objectives for 2 turns' is either recently bugged or the requirement is to be taken absolutely literally, so rather than hold the secondary objectives for 'at least' 2 turns, you have to evacuate at the beginning of turn 3?. I held one of the secondary objectives for around 4 turns and vacated the other 2 on the 3rd turn.

Any ideas?

bru888
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by bru888 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:34 pm

Quite a few of us have played Raseiniai by now and nobody has reported problems with that objective. I took a look at the triggers just now. This one says, "At the start of any turn greater than 2 (basically, Turn 3), if all three of these secondary VP hexes are owned by Green (you), then award the objective and show this popup message (do you remember seeing it?):

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Whereas this trigger says, "Whenever a VP is captured and the Turn is 2 or less, AND Green is holding less than 3 secondary VP's, fail the objective (and the other primary objective as well, by the way; scenario over):

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To test this, I started Raseiniai and used #johnconnor to quell the Germans for two turns. Meanwhile, I skedaddled! You can see here that on Turn 3, the objective is completed:

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Then I reactivated the Germans and watched them take the three secondary objectives while fending them off (barely - I didn't bother with any core units in this test) from Kelme and Raseiniai. You can see that I am still in the running for a Victory:

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So, I could be wrong of course but I don't think there is a bug in Raseiniai in this regard.
- Bru

steevodeevo
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by steevodeevo » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:49 pm

Thanks Bru,

Your post made me stop and think. To my dismay I found that I was having a total mental blind spot for the secondary victory zone in the north ...5 times in a row in the end.
For some reason I didn't see that the hex to hold as on the bridge and I was constantly falling back to defend the exit from the bridge on the opposite landward side!

There is absolutely no reason for this as the hex is clearly marked, but my brain just would't grasp it.

Apologies for your wasted checking of the triggers, though it did make me sit up and pay better attention in the end.

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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:22 pm

bru888 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:34 pm
So, I could be wrong of course but I don't think there is a bug in Raseiniai in this regard.
It's a tricky one, but the fail trigger on the "hold three secondaries" is not working, although it looks okay at first glance. It remains "open" and gives the impression it may be validated at scenario end.

bru888
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:35 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:22 pm
bru888 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:34 pm
So, I could be wrong of course but I don't think there is a bug in Raseiniai in this regard.
It's a tricky one, but the fail trigger on the "hold three secondaries" is not working, although it looks okay at first glance. It remains "open" and gives the impression it may be validated at scenario end.
It does work but it's interesting why you say this. The trigger definitely fails both human objectives immediately but the scenario does not end right then. Note that the Trigger Event is "Capture VP Event" and that instead of awarding the AI's objective (required for defining a player's Defeat), it sets a Scenario Variable:

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Also note that the "Ger Win" trigger is set for Trigger Event: "Turn Start." For this reason, the scenario cannot be adjudged as a Defeat until the next instance of Turn Start. Since the Germans go first in this scenario, that means the turn after the one in which they took one of the secondary objectives and failed the human player's objective:

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That accounts for the objective remaining open while the human player takes his turn even though the objective has already been failed. The scenario is not over until the beginning of the next turn; i.e., the next Turn Start. (And there is no definition of Alliance, so it is the beginning of Turn 3, not the human player's start of Turn 2).

I ran another test. For simplicity's sake, I merely removed all Soviet units to allow the Germans to move in unimpeded. Here is the situation at the end of Turn 1:

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Here, at the end of Turn 2, we see that Nemaksciai has fallen. During Turn 2, which fails the human objectives. However, the "results" are not posted yet:

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So what happens is, the human player, always going second, plays out his portion of Turn 2 thinking that he has dodged a bullet or misunderstood the mission. Then, the German AI plays out its portion of Turn 3! This happens even though the human objectives have been failed and the "Ger Win" AI objective has been awarded. It's only when the human player expects to play his Turn 3 that he gets the bad news:

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Interesting, interesting stuff. But it's one of those things that I wouldn't tag as a bug; more of a design quirk. The game is doing what it is supposed to do, as directed by the trigger design.

So why did the designer do it this way, using a Scenario Variable to award the AI its win, rather than just incorporating "Ger Win" as a third "Set Objective State" in the two "FAIL" triggers? Not a criticism, but if he did so, we would not be talking about this. I tried to figure this out too but now my head is hurting so I will leave it there. :wink:
- Bru

steevodeevo
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by steevodeevo » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:55 am

I didn't get a red cross / fail at all. I misunderstood the objective (in two different ways as it happens, but never mind), but in each case the ? remained in place (despite having failed) until the very last turn of the game and the scenario timer ran out, at which point it told me I had failed. That was the most frustrating part.

bru888
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:05 am

Heh, I cannot leave this alone but I must or my head really will start hurting. :shock: :wink:

But I had my test still up and running, so I put back one Soviet unit just to make sure that the total absence of Soviet units didn't affect results.

Here is the situation after the German Turn 2. Note that my Soviet conscripts are about to resume running for their lives from the entire Luftwaffe!

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They can run, but they can't hide. End of Turn 2. Note that once again, Nemaksciai has been taken but the scenario is not over:

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Instead, the Luftwaffe catches up with me and I get pounded in their Turn 3. Only after indulging themselves thusly, do I get the coup de grâce:

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So, Steevo, no problem at all with your question. I'm glad you got sorted out (at least as to why you failed) and, as you can see, you started a fascinating discussion! (To me, at least. :) )

This is the only way that I can analyze a scenario's structure; it does make sense to me logically; and I have tested it in a few ways with positive results. Without playing the scenario over and over again, I cannot hope to reproduce your results as to why "I didn't get a red cross / fail at all." Even if I did, I wouldn't be able to explain it to you!

The good news, by the way, is that if one does "sit up and pay better attention" (no offense), it's actually pretty hard to lose the "Hold 3 secondary objectives for 2 turns" mission. Note in my tests that the Germans never even get to the other two objectives in two turns even while unopposed. They only make it to Nemaksciai in time.
- Bru

Erik2
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by Erik2 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:12 am

I love these CSI discussions. Learn something new every time.

bebro
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by bebro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:22 am

Re Op, thx we are aware of the issue, IIRC Gabe hinted about it earlier, it should be fixed in a patch.

steevodeevo
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by steevodeevo » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:14 am

This is why I still play this game and have every expansion despite being totally inept at the game. I love this forum community and support.

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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by CoolDTA » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:59 am

Erik2 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:12 am
I love these CSI discussions. Learn something new every time.
+ 1

Chief Investigator Bru knows his stuff and presents it so that even a simple-minded person like me understands.

bru888
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Re: Defeat in Red Star: Raseiniai scenario, don't understand why?

Post by bru888 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:09 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:59 am
Erik2 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:12 am
I love these CSI discussions. Learn something new every time.
+ 1

Chief Investigator Bru knows his stuff and presents it so that even a simple-minded person like me understands.
I blush. :oops:
- Bru

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