The "Gabe-Mod" (v8.1.0)

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GabeKnight
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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:40 pm

Horst wrote:type5_ho-chi shock value is 30 which is possibly wrong because it has a similar 150mm gun like the type4_ho-ro. It should rather be shock 15.
type4_ha-to uses a 300m mortar which rather justifies a shock 30 value.
Done. Although that kind of changes are quite the limit I'm about to do.
Horst wrote:British_mortarinfantry has A10 unlike other inf-mortars with A0, catapulting this unit to another dimension.
Yeah, I remember exploiting this quite much :D :wink:
And I thought it was fixed already... This can't be right, removed.

Churchill_AVRE (290mm mortar): similar to the Karl-Gerät's attack stats basically, so I'm keeping the low inf. and veh. attack values. Change: shock=20, Assault=7. And Wikipedia says it was also able to remove mines, so I've added the "minesweeper" trait. I'm also giving this unit a range=2 setting instead of a "mortar barage" switch, despite the quite low firing range IRL. So it's rather an artillery unit now. But without the range increase, the AVRE would basically be demoted to an expensive heavily armoured mechanised engineer unit. :roll: :lol:

Churchill_Crocodile: Flamethrower and main gun, so I'm keeping the other stats and increasing the "usual" other flamethrower tank's values a bit to Shock=25, Assault=5
(Thanks Oleksandr for pointing out Ichthyic's useful post in Burma Road campaign issues, and Kondi's thread)
Horst wrote:Btw, google is your friend to find info of about any weapons. Wikipedia already covers most weapon systems fine enough. Translating some wiki-sites like a Russian one can also give additional or even better info sometimes. It doesn't require a million-dollar library to create plausible wargame stats, just motivation and plenty time.
What's google...? :D
Okay, I know, but sometimes it's just too much or there are too many sources or in english only...I'd rather rely on sources I trust :wink:
It's not that I'm not always reading something on the side, but to make accurate decisions, someone like me would need TONS of reading material to have all the background knowledge needed. How else does one make reasonable assumptions and estimations about game model's correlation to real life vehicles/units? Probably I'll never have enough knowledge in that field.

PS: Cool AVRE video, Thanks Horst. Sometimes I seriously forget there's something like "youtube" around... :lol:
Last edited by GabeKnight on Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:21 pm

As always, some things work, and some don't. Sadly, I can't have both:
ISE-Project01.jpg
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Last edited by GabeKnight on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SirAllan
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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by SirAllan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:27 pm

Hi Guys
I have read all your good articles with greate interest, but I have a greate wish - where can I find all your good stuff, so I can try them out and perhaps join with some feedback as well.
I have ask before but not allways get info where to download them.
I really hope you good modders will tell where to get them :D

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:07 pm

SirAllan wrote:Hi Guys
I have read all your good articles with greate interest, but I have a greate wish - where can I find all your good stuff, so I can try them out and perhaps join with some feedback as well.
I have ask before but not allways get info where to download them.
I really hope you good modders will tell where to get them :D
There's terminator's "Forgotten Units" mod here with a download link.

And my mod's still my own at the moment. I'm planning to share, but there are some things I want to straighten out first. I don't want to "publish" some half-baked stuff, therefore I'm still testing and experimenting around. But thanks for the interest, shouldn't be too long.

Horst
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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by Horst » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:46 pm

A change that I did but is possibly not liked by others: adding staticFire to AA-class and removing that AAFire trait from capital ships in classes.txt.
It’s not plausible if AA vehicles, ships or even towed units can chase 10-times faster aircraft and attack them. I would have liked keeping the AAFire from ships but staticFire would also eliminate the move and fire ability against naval and ground targets. The supportAA trait for most naval classes is already fine enough in my game.
I have often observed how silly the AI ships run after my planes just get a shot at them. Imagine this in reality. Turns are meant to be executed roughly at same real time. Air defense is rather a matter of being in the right place at the right time, and not by changing position according to aircraft passing the region in a few real-time seconds or minutes.
What do you think about this?

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:12 pm

Okay, first version's up.
Always in the first post of this thread.
I'll update as I go along with the other changes.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by SirAllan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:43 am

Thx Gabe :D

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by airbornemongo101 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:46 pm

+1
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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by kondi754 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:12 pm

Deleted
Last edited by kondi754 on Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:58 pm

Interested in fixing availability dates or do you rather think that keeping vanilla errors is more important for the sake of (un)balance?
Although I think something like the long-range 17cm K18, no matter when available, is unbalancing the game enough...

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Horst wrote:A change that I did but is possibly not liked by others: adding staticFire to AA-class and removing that AAFire trait from capital ships in classes.txt.
Yeah. One of them being me :lol: No AA fire for ships? No way.
Horst wrote:It’s not plausible if AA vehicles, ships or even towed units can chase 10-times faster aircraft and attack them. I would have liked keeping the AAFire from ships but staticFire would also eliminate the move and fire ability against naval and ground targets. The supportAA trait for most naval classes is already fine enough in my game.
I have often observed how silly the AI ships run after my planes just get a shot at them. Imagine this in reality. Turns are meant to be executed roughly at same real time. Air defense is rather a matter of being in the right place at the right time, and not by changing position according to aircraft passing the region in a few real-time seconds or minutes.
What do you think about this?
I see it like this: Even though the statement that turns "are meant to be executed roughly at same real time" is correct in its core, most (official) scenarios pass time with about 0,5-2 days/turn. That means to me, that the "real-time" can be a duration of 1-2 days.

Is it really that unplausible that a moving ship crosses paths with an enemy plane in that time period? And the mechanic, that moving a ship reduces the AA damage done to the target reflects that situation quite good IMO. If you remain stationary, the damage output is maxed. And if you move the ship - and at some point during the two days it comes across that plane and takes a shot at it - it does reduced (mostly like 0.5-1 HP) damage. What's so wrong with that?

It's similar with AA ground units. When moved long distances in transports, they can't fire at all. Without transports it's the same situation as with the ships. Consider it like this: the AA units are not "chasing" after the planes but engaging the enemy within a given time period and specific area of operations. But moving AA gound units could get some kind of firing penalty like ships, that would be okay. Or maybe not? How long does it take to set up an AA positon if you know some plane's (probably) coming your way attacking some arty position nearby? I mean, we're still speaking about whole two days during one turn.

Of course it's not perfect, but it's still a turn-based game, and IMO an okay representation. And it still has to be playable.
So, I don't know Horst, I'll observe and may change it for land AA units later. But at the moment, I don't mind keeping it as it is.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:19 pm

It's already the matter alone how silly it looks when naval ships or AA guns move to the point where exactly planes are at moment - reacting and following their normally incredible real speed. Land-based reaction is all fine among such units with artillery and such, but land/sea and air are two different worlds of speed.
Given the vanilla speeds on paved road, AA-vehicles could almost follow planes at same pace and giving shots at them wherever they fly. But hey, everyone's own gameplay fun! :)

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:46 pm

Horst wrote:Given the vanilla speeds on paved road, AA-vehicles could almost follow planes at same pace and giving shots at them wherever they fly. But hey, everyone's own gameplay fun! :)
:lol: But...it's still a game. With limited scale.
And honestly, apart from using the ship's AA fire ability from time to time, recently I'm trying to avoid wasting my precious CP on ground AA units. I rather depend on strong dogfighters. But my opinion may change after I've added the AA/AT switch setting to them.
Horst wrote:Interested in fixing availability dates or do you rather think that keeping vanilla errors is more important for the sake of (un)balance?
Although I think something like the long-range 17cm K18, no matter when available, is unbalancing the game enough...
Yeah, the 8-hex range and high attack values are quite powerful. And the last months I've been playing mostly Germans. Strange... :lol: But that unit was not my idea :wink:

Apart from my "Schienengeschütz" unit, I'm striving to make my mod completely compatible to official content. So I'd say it depends on the extent of the error. I'd imagine, some unit's dates may have been tweaked by the devs to allow certain units to be available to the player at the start of scenarios (deployment stage). That I really don't mind, and wouldn't want to change.

But grave errors in continuity, availability or some obvious overlapping dates errors, why not? What do you have?

@Kondi
Thanks for the input. I've also seen your posts in the "Race For Bastogne" thread, but could you at least explain a little bit how you did come up with the new stats? I've seen you're quite versed in that field, so a little help in understanding would be appreciated, if you don't mind.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by kondi754 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:14 pm

@Kondi
Thanks for the input. I've also seen your posts in the "Race For Bastogne" thread, but could you at least explain a little bit how you did come up with the new stats? I've seen you're quite versed in that field, so a little help in understanding would be appreciated, if you don't mind.
It seemed to me that no one was interested, so I removed the graphics and new statistics from both threads. :wink:
The most important reason, however, was that I decided to do comprehensive statistics for all fighter planes that fought in Europe and the Mediterranean. We can't present something in isolation from previous models and without comparison, eg. with German planes.

The thing is that the first multirole aircraft appeared in the allied air forces at the end of the war. Thunderbolt, Typhoon and even Mustang or late Spitfire were used for direct support on the battlefield too. It turned out that these planes are definitely better in precise bombardment of point targets than medium or light bombers (Mitchell, Marauder, Mosquito, Boston or Invader). I believe that the ground attack statistics of these fighters armed with bombs and rockets are definetly too low in OoB, since they took over the support of ground units in 1944/45.
It seems to me that developers should solve this with the help of, for example, a button changing the mode from a fighter to a bomber (with appropriate conversion factors), such as eg. AT/indirect fire mode in self-propelled guns.
Until, however, the creators of the game will not deal with this problem, it would be good to tweak these statistics by yourself
Erik tweaked these statistics and used them in his scenario, but I do not agree with his proposals, I think they are too high.
I also have a lot of objections to vanilla stats, also when it comes to the prices for various models of aircrafts and even air attack statistics.
That's all.
You're right it's very important for me, and I agree that I know a little about British and US Army in 1944/45. :D
Last edited by kondi754 on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:20 pm

I’ve just recently researched again the German dates. As far as only German content is currently produced, let’s stick to these alone. Everyone here can also see it as little history lesson even if no one bothers to change it.
If vanilla campaigns tend to do historical jumps of half years and more, it is obliviously not of much interest if units become available one day or month earlier or later, but it’s still important for more in-depth, historical-close custom campaigns.
The most important factor of these dates is that units should go along campaign dates, preferably the vanilla ones, but if possible close to something like the converted PzC-campaigns too. No unit should pop-up (if working) as new available unit 1-2 turns after a scenario starts. I still miss the dates of the African vanilla campaign to suggest better ones.

I’m listing here only few units with vanilla dates with a suggestion added:
SdKfz_251: 18/7/1939
Now this is a quite early date. There have been units in Poland on trial with the APC but as the player can purchase them in unlimited numbers, it should rather be first available in Battle of France in large numbers: 10/5/1940

PzKw_VI_Tiger_H: 1/10/1942
This is a critical date as everyone knows how powerful Tiger tanks are.
The Tiger was first used in action on 23 September 1942 near Leningrad, but rather only on trial at first. The first battle in Tunesia was on 1 December 1942.
I think it’s important that that Tiger should not participate in the 2nd Battle of Alamein in the Sandstorm campaign, thus a date of 1/12/1942 sounds more reasonable, but let’s wait for the release of that DLC to get a better date.

Sturmhaubitze 42: 14/3/1944
This is a rather too-late date for a change, given it was produced from October 1942 to September 1944. It can be available after the Tunisian campaign from 14/5/1943 on.

Sturer_Emil: 9/7/1942
I don’t like trial or prototype-only available in campaigns for players to be obtainable in unlimited numbers. Only 2 trial SPGs were used in the war.
You can make it available on 1/7/1942 as a better starting date for PK:Approaching Stalingrad. This unit should never be available to the African campaign, but I guess there is no current way to prevent it, except if you limit the time frame, like only available for a week until 7/7/1942 or something. I’m waiting for the Sandstorm DLC for a better time frame. It's a unit that should rather only be given as reward and not be available to be purchased.

170mm_K18: /
Okay, this is a serious flaw of the availability dates, as this unit was not used until 1941. It’s like making the Tiger available in 1940.
I’m still researching for a more accurate date as it’s possible that units haven’t been used at start of Barbarossa in 22/6/1941. It’s still a much better date than starting in Poland with such powerful artillery.

Sturmpanzer_I: 20/2/1940
Nothing too critical, but these only 38 produced conversions have only seen action in Battle of France since 10/5/1940 and not in Norway earlier in April. PzC has these available from 1/1/1939 what is absolutely wrong as they were converted in February 1940 – too early for OoB too as every unit must be checked and trained with before getting into proper service.

Karl_Gerat_40: 5/5/1940
6 production vehicles delivered between November 1940 and August 1941. These monstrous artillery pieces definitely not saw action until Operation Barbarossa in 22/6/1941. They should not be available for the hilly Balkan campaign either - also not for the African campaign but I guess we can’t avoid it without a newly coded limitation.

20mm_Flakvierling38: /
Produced from 1940 to 1945, so it’s rather first available since Battle of France on 10/5/1940.

Ju88_A: 13/1/1939
Produced from summer 1939 on but only 27 were ready in December. I’ve made the A-1 available for Norway on 8/4/1940, so you can’t use it in Poland yet.

That’s all after a quick scan through the vanilla dates comparing with my own notes. There are plenty more differences, but either I lack the dates for the African campaign or they aren’t that critical to bother with.
Everyone here may correct me, as I don't have a million-dollar library available either.

Another fix you should do: add Flugzeugtrager as required specialisation in units.csv, otherwise you can purchase these units without spec:
Bf109_T
Ju87_C_T
Ju87_C_B
CV_Jade
CV_Graf_Zeppelin

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:59 pm

kondi754 wrote:It seemed to me that no one was interested, so I removed the graphics and new statistics from both threads. :wink:
Please don't. At least not from this thread.
To be honest, I can't quite comment on most of your post, as I lack the proper background/history knowledge. This doesn't mean that it's not interesting reading material or appreciated.

I also can't promise the implementation of every suggestion made here, even if it's making sense. :wink: But I'm reading and considering ALL ideas and posts made. It's just I'm quite new to modding and changing stuff in this game. And this means that every small change requires a lot of understanding, testing and experimenting on my side. So it's taking some time, but I'm slowly getting somewhere... :D

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:35 pm

I abuse Gabe’s topic for brainstorming own ideas too that I have personally added in my own mod. As long as it isn’t bug fixing, changing stats for proper historical simulation is a tough topic that not many people can follow or are actually interested in. Nevertheless, it can give people here – not necessarily only Gabe here alone – some pointers if they are motivated to change it for a better, personal gameplay. I'm not really interested in vanilla gaming either anymore with my own gameplay mod that I can't really comment on anything either. I have often difficult to understand vanilla stats rules.
Kondi, or whoever, just post your ideas no matter what! We all know the lack of forum activity here. Maybe we are getting more people here after the most-likely biggest selling Rommel DLC soon. What Gabe won't do in his own mod, may be different with someone else's mod in the future.

Maybe, and only maybe, I’m going to upload my own mod after the last German DLC, as I don’t expect many unit additions afterwards. With a basically total revamp of all unit stats in the game, different class/terrain/movement rules, I’ve possibly already went too far away from vanilla that not many are still interested in such own personal gameplay mod-mess anymore. :)

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by kondi754 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Gabe, Horst

Ok, You're right
I'll try to post my statistics of all US and British fighters in this thread when it will be done, with proper explanation, of course. :)

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by terminator » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:08 am

@GabeKnight : thanks for sharing :D
Horst wrote:Maybe, and only maybe, I’m going to upload my own mod after the last German DLC, as I don’t expect many unit additions afterwards.
If it will be later Endkrieg, we will have to be very patient...

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Re: The "Gabe-Mod" ;) and units.csv fixes (v5.2.9)

Post by terminator » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:13 am

Finnish Infantry 42 :
Available 16/01/42 and have Panzerfaust on the battlefield (not in the small picture) :!:
German Infantry will never have Panzerfaust :(
Finnish Infantry 42.png
Finnish Infantry 42.png (188.6 KiB) Viewed 1479 times
FinnishInfantry.JPG
FinnishInfantry.JPG (37.77 KiB) Viewed 1478 times
Panzerfausts in general, small historical reminder :
"German company called "Hugo Schneider AG" (HASAG) had started development of this new weapon, which was simply put recoilless rifle firing projectile with HEAT-warhead, already in summer of 1942. German military had used HEAT-warheads already in several weapons earlier and recoilless rifles had been tested in many countries in small numbers already before World War 2, but Faustpatrone developed by HASAG was the first antitank weapon to combine the two successfully and see mass-production. The weapon was first known as "Faustpatrone" ("fist-cartridge"), later as "Faustpatrone klein 30m" ("fist-cartridge small 30m") and finally as "Panzerfaust klein" ("armour-fist small"). Field testing stage was achieved in July of 1943 and the weapon entered to large-scale use with German Armed Forces in August of 1943. The "Faustpatrone klein" was also the first disposable recoilless rifle ever, since while in theory its tube could be reloaded, this was not standard procedure.
First delivery of Faustpatrone for Finnish military arrived to Finland with steamship s/s Aune in 11th of April 1944. The delivery contained 1,700 "Faustpatrone klein 30m", 300 Panzerschreck and 3,000 rockets for Panzerschreck. All Panzerfaust of this first delivery were smaller F1-version. Finnish names for the new weapon were direct translations from original German ones: First they were called "Käsipatruuna" (Faustpatrone/fist-cartridge) and later "Panssarinyrkki" (Panzerfaust/armour-fist). Officially the Finnish name change didn't happen until August of 1944, but unofficially Finnish troops had started calling the weapon "Panssarinyrkki" already before that."

After modding, late German Infantry can have Panzerfaust :D
Panzerfaust.png
Panzerfaust.png (194.15 KiB) Viewed 1478 times

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