CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Moderators: The Artistocrats, Order of Battle Moderators

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:22 am

Minsk '44 v. 1.0

I thought we had a problem with the primary VP's because I could only see 12 pointers but indeed there are 13 primary VP's on the map which supports the 10/4 objectives split. It turns out that this one here is not linked to the primary objective (those yellow hex outlines on the template are very handy!):

Screenshot 1.jpg
Screenshot 1.jpg (313.23 KiB) Viewed 450 times

Two orphans, here:

Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (84.49 KiB) Viewed 450 times

and here:

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (100.63 KiB) Viewed 450 times

Thread to be continued . . .
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:35 pm

Vilna v. 1.0

How very bold these guards are, to have advanced so far ahead of their own lines. Unfortunately, they tap their radio in vain: out of commission. "What are our orders? Does anyone know?" Alas, they are orphans:

Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (575.99 KiB) Viewed 429 times

as are these guards, who never even got the word to move out:

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (572.98 KiB) Viewed 429 times

We could send these engineers to fix the radio problem but lo, they are orphans too! As well as their twins further downriver and a tank unit that doesn't seem to care one way or the other:

Screenshot 4.jpg
Screenshot 4.jpg (585.01 KiB) Viewed 429 times
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:17 am

Vilna v. 1.0 (continued)

"Destroy at least 20 partisan units" secondary objective description: "Get an additional 100 resources." (Remove the "d" from "an.")

The proper term here is "wreaked":

Screenshot 6.jpg
Screenshot 6.jpg (253.49 KiB) Viewed 426 times

of which you demonstrated your awareness by using the term correctly here!

Screenshot 7.jpg
Screenshot 7.jpg (247.98 KiB) Viewed 426 times

Now, 13 seems to be the lucky number of primary VP's in the past few scenarios, and the same is true in this one (those lovely yellow-outlined hexes!). So, it would seem that the 10/4 objectives split would also be appropriate. However, you have instead this:

Screenshot 8.jpg
Screenshot 8.jpg (218.73 KiB) Viewed 426 times

If there are 13 primary VP's on the map, and the German objective is to "Hold at least 10 objectives at scenario end," then the Soviet objective should be "4 objs" and the "Value > 3." Them holding 4 victory points would leave only 9 for the Germans, thus thwarting their objective.
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:48 am

Vilna v. 1.0 (continued)

I reserved a separate post for this one in which I have outdone myself! :D

This is a tell-tale sign of trouble:

Screenshot 10.jpg
Screenshot 10.jpg (230.29 KiB) Viewed 423 times

Here are the four fighters on the map, which indicates that some other unit has been assigned to AI Team 1 by mistake:

Screenshot 12.jpg
Screenshot 12.jpg (118.08 KiB) Viewed 423 times

Using the "j" key, I could not find any other such unit marked as "1" already on the map. Presumably that means a unit in reserve - partisans? Sure enough, Partisans-22, the last in line:

Screenshot 13.jpg
Screenshot 13.jpg (254.49 KiB) Viewed 423 times

But wait, there's more! Putting Partisans-22 into AI Team 3 where it belongs brought the Partisans AI Team count up to 23:

Screenshot 15.jpg
Screenshot 15.jpg (249.8 KiB) Viewed 423 times

How can that be if there are only 22 partisan units? So I scoured the map again for anybody in AI Team 3. Nobody. Hmmm. There has to be a logical answer. And sure enough:

Screenshot 16.jpg
Screenshot 16.jpg (243.5 KiB) Viewed 423 times

You have two Partisans-20 in the scenario, meaning Partisans-22 is actually the 23rd partisans unit! WHO IS THE SLEUTH HERE, EH?

Pardon me while I pat myself on the back. Oof, unh, whew. It's hard reaching back there these days. :roll:
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:02 am

Warsaw Uprising v. 1.0

Having recently read Mila 18 by Leon Uris, I found my jocular mood coming to an abrupt end upon opening this scenario. There is no doubt who the "Partisans" are in this scenario and having them included as part of a mission to "Eliminate all Polish units" is a bit tough to enjoy.

This abruptly reminded me of what this war was about and who were the bad guys in it. Although I have mentioned in the past an ability to suspend such remembrance when playing as the villains of this war, enjoying the battling of professional armies, navies, and air forces, this is one scenario that I am not ever going to enjoy playing.

Well, it is war and it is part of the historical record and we have chosen to replicate it here, albeit fighting for the wrong side. It is what it was, so enough editorializing. Let's proceed with the sweep.
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:26 am

Warsaw Uprising v. 1.0 (continued)

There's a fault in this trigger. This effect is fine:

Screenshot 1.jpg
Screenshot 1.jpg (212.22 KiB) Viewed 410 times

but this effect is gratuitous and will fail the objective when it should actually be completed:

Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (216.89 KiB) Viewed 410 times

This one may be a problem in that the Germans start out with only 1 primary VP in hand so this trigger may fire right away. Did you mean "Value >3"?

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (219 KiB) Viewed 410 times

Similar issue here, perhaps, but in this case I think using VP Type "Any" will cause this trigger to activate immediately as well. At the beginning of the scenario, the Germans hold the one primary VP but they also have 5 other plain old capture points. If "Any" includes those capture points, then the Soviets will be activated immediately:

Screenshot 5.jpg
Screenshot 5.jpg (208.32 KiB) Viewed 410 times
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:41 am

Warsaw Uprising v. 1.0 (continued)

I see that you (or the PzC designer) took some historical liberties here. The Soviets sat on their asses while this was going on; according to Wikipedia, "Initially, the Poles established control over most of central Warsaw, but the Soviets ignored Polish attempts to make radio contact with them and did not advance beyond the city limits." And, to my own bit of shame, "Winston Churchill pleaded with Stalin and Franklin D. Roosevelt to help Britain's Polish allies, to no avail." A bit of shame, I say, because the Soviets were in a much better position to have offered support to the Warsaw Uprising than the Americans, but still.

So it was good to see that the German player will be challenged by the Soviets in this scenario and that the Americans are also represented in the form of air support. This in turn was a nice reminder of when the world viewed the United States as a force for good, an upholder of human liberty and dignity. (Not to say that there haven't been some deviations to that - Vietnam, Iraq - but generally it was true.)

It's only in recent years that I have become wary of admitting that I am an American in forums such as this. To say it bluntly, I have become ashamed of my own country and the buffoon who now "leads" us to the scorn of the rest of the world. I am ashamed that so many of my countrymen now feel emboldened by him to come forward with their regressive viewpoints. Frankly, I fear for our future as a democracy and if we go down, so will democratic institutions all across the globe.

Thread to be continued . . .
- Bru

Navman2854
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:09 pm
Location: Wilmington DE USA

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by Navman2854 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:13 am

bru888 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:41 am
Warsaw Uprising v. 1.0 (continued)

I see that you (or the PzC designer) took some historical liberties here. The Soviets sat on their asses while this was going on; according to Wikipedia, "Initially, the Poles established control over most of central Warsaw, but the Soviets ignored Polish attempts to make radio contact with them and did not advance beyond the city limits." And, to my own bit of shame, "Winston Churchill pleaded with Stalin and Franklin D. Roosevelt to help Britain's Polish allies, to no avail." A bit of shame, I say, because the Soviets were in a much better position to have offered support to the Warsaw Uprising than the Americans, but still.

So it was good to see that the German player will be challenged by the Soviets in this scenario and that the Americans are also represented in the form of air support. This in turn was a nice reminder of when the world viewed the United States as a force for good, an upholder of human liberty and dignity. (Not to say that there haven't been some deviations to that - Vietnam, Iraq - but generally it was true.)

It's only in recent years that I have become wary of admitting that I am an American in forums such as this. To say it bluntly, I have become ashamed of my own country and the buffoon who now "leads" us to the scorn of the rest of the world. I am ashamed that so many of my countrymen now feel emboldened by him to come forward with their regressive viewpoints. Frankly, I fear for our future as a democracy and if we go down, so will democratic institutions all across the globe.

Thread to be continued . . .

Couldn't agree more bru :!: :!: :!:

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Jassy-Kishinev v. 1.0

There are several orphans in this screenshot, six planes and one tank:

Screenshot 1.jpg
Screenshot 1.jpg (628.79 KiB) Viewed 381 times

Reneging on your promises again, I see:

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (167.59 KiB) Viewed 381 times
Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (214.89 KiB) Viewed 381 times

There are four Romanian concrete bunkers in the scenario. These will count towards the "Keep at least 15 Rumanian units alive" objective because technically, concrete bunkers are land units by Category. I doubt that this is what you had in mind, so I would recommend using Class instead: Infantry, artillery, anti-air, anti-tank:

Screenshot 4.jpg
Screenshot 4.jpg (450.82 KiB) Viewed 381 times
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:09 pm

Return to Kishinev v. 1.0

This may be another one in which you may want to consider tweaking the balance (although not as bad as Poltava). By my count, there are 167 AI land units and using the simple algorithm of dividing land CP's by 3, I estimate 49 German core units. Even augmented by the 7 aux units, that's still 3 to 1 odds. And that's not even considering the income disparity, come to think of it.

This calls to mind one of the challenges of scenario and campaign design: historical verisimilitude. It's late in the war and the Germans should be losing. Yet, it would be frustrating and boring to be condemned to lose (or guaranteed to win, if playing the other side), so how does one provide for the possibility of victory as the reward for superior gameplay as the Germans despite what the annals of history tell us? I will leave that up to you, oh guru of OOB design. :wink:

There are two orphans here:

Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (289.72 KiB) Viewed 378 times

It may be nitpicking, but perhaps this should be rephrased. As a result of the coup d'etat, Romania and the USSR are now allies so this statement is confusing. Maybe something like: Soviets launch their second offensive against German-held Romania, aided by the Romanians themselves who have turned on their former German allies.

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (206.66 KiB) Viewed 378 times

This Value has to be corrected; perhaps something as simple as reversing the sign as in "Value > 0" if that is what you intended:

Screenshot 4.jpg
Screenshot 4.jpg (205.13 KiB) Viewed 378 times
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:04 pm

Budapest '44 v. 1.0

Two orphans here:

Screenshot 2.jpg
Screenshot 2.jpg (133.03 KiB) Viewed 367 times

and one here:

Screenshot 3.jpg
Screenshot 3.jpg (102.13 KiB) Viewed 367 times

This is usually a sign of trouble:

Screenshot 4.jpg
Screenshot 4.jpg (223.31 KiB) Viewed 367 times

and sure enough, it's because you have your air units mixed in with artillery. I couldn't fit all three bombers in the screenshot, but they and the fighters are lumped into AI teams 11 and 12 instead of 1 and 2 which I assume would be correct:

Screenshot 7.jpg
Screenshot 7.jpg (646.6 KiB) Viewed 367 times
- Bru

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:20 pm

This fulfills my contractual obligations for this CSI Sweep. I will leave you with one final recommendation to review the number of turns allotted for many of these scenarios. Here is the list:

Image0126.jpg
Image0126.jpg (54.73 KiB) Viewed 364 times

I say this from the admittedly weak position of not having played these scenarios through but from experience and in view of how large these maps are and how many victory point objectives they contain, it would seem that as few as 18 turns may not be sufficient to fairly allow the player to get the job done.
- Bru

Horst
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Sr. Colonel - Battleship
Posts: 1612
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by Horst » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:46 pm

bru888 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:20 pm
I say this from the admittedly weak position of not having played these scenarios through but from experience and in view of how large these maps are and how many victory point objectives they contain, it would seem that as few as 18 turns may not be sufficient to fairly allow the player to get the job done.
Even if the AI gets no RP for replacements, OOB units are usually more mobile unlike in PzC that the player has to take care of not being cut-off by strength-1 units.
At least you got more potent core units late in the war to faster destroy enemy units compared to the beginning in 39.
Turn limits always have to be tested thoroughly, preferably on different difficulty grades.

By the way, does this "contract" pay well? :)

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3380
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by bru888 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:13 pm

Horst wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:46 pm
By the way, does this "contract" pay well? :)
Well, yes, it does indeed. :wink:
- Bru

Erik2
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 6271
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Norway

Re: CSI Sweep: Germany East 1944

Post by Erik2 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm

Thanks, Bru.

I'll start fixing/changing the scenarios including the turn recommendations.
The PzC scenarios can usually be finished in a shorter number of turns than similar OOB versions.

Post Reply

Return to “Order of Battle : World War II - Scenario Design”