Moderators: Order of Battle Moderators, The Artistocrats
for example, I don't really think we can precise with which corps were the commandos... but they were there anyway!) Probably worth being mentionned somewhere...
To quickly be convinced about the serious implication of this 9e DIC, you can already see that here as well Toulon is mentionned: https://second.wiki/wiki/9e_division_de ... _coloniale
The most time, indeed...bru888 wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 9:23 pm [...] The reason is, I went with this OOB of the First Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Army_(France)
And I subtracted out what the I Corps article said: "For the remainder of the war in Europe, many French divisions would be subordinated to 1st Army Corps, but the divisions that spent the most time with the corps were the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division (2e DIM), the 9th Colonial Infantry Division (9e DIC), the 4th Moroccan Mountain Division (4e DMM), and the 1st Armoured Division (1re DB)." [...]
By the way, now we could as well add some named concrete bunkers inside Toulon as well... we've several candidates for this given by this French link. 
anyway, no need to go too much into "details" about this particular point, I would say... We have for example the map shown here, http://chez.jeannette.fleurs.over-blog. ... vence.html , that highlight somehow this point with the 1re DB in the NE of the map...
And there are 4 cool pictures within this link as well! 
There is a point that surprises me with the commandos that are visible on the map (screenshot): why the British and not the Americans? 
and we've tracks of the implication of the "First Special Service Force" (under "Preliminary operations" here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon for example)... and these guys, by the way, were Americans AND Canadians, so one could even represent 2 units under the US flag and 1 unit under the Canadian flag (instead of these 3 British flags, that is).
I have been wondering about Toulon forts. What link?
Good point; I made the changes to the SSF units accordingly.ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:15 am
Apparently, the British were only there in their planes and on their ships...
The last link found shows a map as well without an English flag down there but an US one...
As Homer Simpson would say, "D'oh"! It really is becoming all a blur ... There were those forts near the mouth of the harbour of Toulon, which were included in Operation Lila Denied.
bru888 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:09 pm [...]
3) But as to the composition of II Corps, that's where I was stumped. A corps can be reorganized repeatedly, with divisions swapped in and out. Yes, indeed. [...]
4) This map clearly shows the divisions involved:
1st Free French Division (1er DFL)
3rd Algerian Infantry Division (3e DIA)
1st Armoured Division (1er DB) => The 1st instead of the 5th? Okay for me.
9th Colonial Division (9e DIC) => Yes, this one was definitely involved!
I am comfortable with this lineup; four divisions, approximately 60-70 land units. Yes, let's go like this! The 1er DFL includes some old friends: Indeed!
1ST FREE FRENCH DIVISION (1er DFL): =>
1st Battalion of the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion, 13e DBLE
2nd Battalion of the 13th Demi-Brigade of Foreign Legion, 13e DBLE
22nd North-African Marching Battalion (French: 22e Bataillon Nord-Africain, 22e BMNA)
Marching Battalion nº 4, BM 4
Marching Battalion nº 5, BM 5
Marching Battalion nº 11, BM 11
Marching Battalion nº 21, BM 21
Marching Battalion nº 24, BM 24
Marine Infantry and Pacific Battalion
1er Régiment de Fusiliers Marins, 1er RFM (tank)
1er Régiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (tank)
1st Artillery Regiment of Free French Forces, RAFFL. (two guns)
21st anti-aircraft group of the Antilles, part of the Antillean Marching Battalion no 1.
1st Engineering Battalion
4th Anti-Tank company
11e Régiment de cuirassiers (recon)
And I am rid of those blasted Moroccan Goums!
ColonelY wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:01 pm OPERATION DRAGOON:
A more detailed look at the actual composition of these French divisions:
“1re division de Français libres” (general Brosset):
• “13e Demi-brigade de Légion étrangère” (DBLE, which icludes here its two first battalions!)
• “22e Bataillon de marche nord-africain” (22e BMNA)
• As “Bataillon de marche” (BM), the followings: 4e (BM), 5e, 11e, 21e and 24e
• And the “Bataillon d’infanterie de marine et du Pacifique” (BIMP; composed by the merger of two battalions that distinguished themselves at Bir Hakeim!)
• “1er Régiment de Fusiliers marins” (another famous one, as well as the 13e DBLE!)
• “1re Compagnie de chars de combat” (with medium tanks Renault R35)
• “11e Régiment de cuirassiers” (with medium tanks Sherman M4A1 and some light tanks Chaffee) => so not that much "recon"...
• “1er Régiment d’artillerie des Forces Françaises Libres” (RAFFL)
• “21e Groupe antillais de DCA” (with some AA-gun)
• “1er Bataillon du Génie” (an unit of engineers)
• “4e Compagnie anti-chars” (with some AT-gun)
“9e division d’infanterie coloniale” (gen. Magnan):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs sénégalais” the followings: 4e, 6e and 13e
• “Régiment d’infanterie coloniale du Maroc” (RICM; a recon unit on armored cars!)
• “Régiment d’artillerie coloniale du Maroc”
• “Régiment colonial de chasseurs de chars” (tank-destroyers M10)
• “71e Bataillon du Génie” (as engineers)
• “2e RAC-AOF” + “3e RAC-AOF” (i.e. groupe du Régiment d’Artillerie Coloniale d’Afrique occidentale)
• “25e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep) => Nah, let's forget about this...(
• A group with AA-guns
“2e division d’infanterie marocaine” (gen. Dody):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs marocains”, the followings: 4e, 5e and 8e
• “3e Régiment de Spahis marocains” (with one squadron on M5 light tanks and three squadrons as recon on “Scoot Car”)
• “63e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “DARR” (i.e. Détachement d'Appui du Régiment de Reconnaissance -> so probably another armored recon unit)
• “41e Groupe de DCA”
• “87e Bataillon du Génie”
• “9e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
“3e division d’infanterie algérienne” (gen. de Monsabert):
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs algériens”, the followings: 3e, 7e (RTA)
• “4e Régiment de Tirailleurs tunisiens” (4e RTT)
• “3e Régiment de Spahis algériens de reconnaissance” (3e RSAR; some recon unit on armored car)
• “7e Régiment de chasseurs d’Afrique” (7e RCA; used some American tanks, probably some Sherman too… this regiment was first used as a reserve unit before being adapted to this infantry division…)
• “67e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “37e Groupe de DCA”
• “83e Bataillon du Génie”
• “3e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
“4e division marocaine de montagne” (gen. Sevez)
• As “Régiment de Tirailleurs marocains”, the followings: 1er and 6e
• “1er Régiment de Tirailleurs algériens”
• “4e Régiment de Spahis marocains” (with one squadron on M5 light tanks and three squadrons as recon on “Scoot Car”)
• “64e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “69e Régiment d’artillerie de montagne”
• “33e Groupe de DCA”
• “82e Bataillon du Génie”
• “8e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
“1re division blindée” (gen. Touzet du Vigier)
• As “Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique”, the followings: 2e (RCA) and 5e (both with tanks Sherman), as well as the 3e (recon!) and the 9e (tank-destroyers M10)
• “2e Régiment de Cuirassiers” (with again some tanks Sherman)
• Three independent and motorized infantry units, as “Bataillon de Zouaves” the followings: 1er, 2e and 3e
• “68e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “38e Groupe de DCA”
• “88e Bataillon du Génie”
• “15e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
“5e division blindée” (gen. de Vernejoul)
• “Régiment de marche de la Légion étrangère” (RMLE ; motorized infantry – 3 battalions!)
• “1er Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (1e RCA ; tanks Sherman)
• “6e Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (6e RCA ; tanks Sherman)
• “11e Régiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique” (11e RCA ; tank-destroyers M10)
• “1er Régiment de Cuirassiers” (1e CUIR ; tanks Somua and Hotchkiss, almost 50%/50% - if a single unit in the campaign must represent this regiment, then take the best tank available between the Somua and the Hotchkiss, of course!)
• “1er Régiment étranger de Cavalerie” (1e REC ; part of the “Légion étrangère” ; actually used as an armored recon unit, with some armored cars or something)
• “62e Régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique”
• “31e Groupe de DCA”
• “96e Bataillon du Génie”
• “14e Bataillon médical” (-> with a medical jeep)
************************
The Americans had the 6th Corps (General Truscott) with 3 infantry divisions (the 3rd, the 45th and the 36th) and 1 airborne division, all of which belonged to General Patch's 7th Army. (We’ll come back to this later…)
Naval force: an armada of many allied warships, including 34 French ships (the battleship Lorraine, 3 cruisers, about twenty destroyers – at least “contre-torpilleurs” and “avisos”, etc.).
So, a more detailed look at these Free French naval forces: => There to make choices (of course we expect British ships as well and perhaps, for the flavor, one from New Zealand as well...
• 1 battleship: Lorraine
• 3 cruisers: Émile Bertin, Jeanne d’Arc, Dubuay-Trouin
• 3 light cruiser: Le Terrible, Le Fantasque, Le Malin
• Many destroyers (of all kinds): Le Fortuné, Le Forbin, Le Tempête, Le Simoun, L'Alcyon, Le Marocain, Le Tunisien, Le Hova, L'Algérien, Le Somali, La Gracieuse, La Boudeuse, Le Commandant Delage, Le Commandant Bory, Le Commandant Dominé, La Moqueuse
For naval support only, there was even Greece and New Zealand!
Air force: 5,000 aircraft (fighters, bombers, reconnaissance or transport).
For air support only, there was even Australia and South Africa!
[...]
This one: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9e_divi ... _coloniale
This is the (translated) part of interest for us in terms of forts: ColonelY wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:25 pm
So, on overall:
[...
]
Germans: 7 infantry divisions (including the 148th, 242nd, 244th) + 1 armored division + several battalions of the Ost Legion + the Mediterranean Wall (of course less solid than the Atlantic Wall, but still for a total of 600 concrete works)... + Toulon and Marseille which form 2 formidable strongholds regrouping a total of 400 artillery pieces of all calibers (105mm, 150mm, 155mm, etc., + ATs of 25 and 37mm), including 340mm naval guns...
German garrison of Toulon: 30 forts, abundant artillery and innumerable casemates, 18'000 men (some from the 242nd ID, others from the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe) commanded by the admiral Ruhfus... (The French had only 16'000 men to lead the assault, but it was a brilliant victory).
Toulon: harbor, arsenal, Thouar massif, Fontpré castle, Coudon and La Pourdière forts...
[...] Marseille: General Schaeffer, commander of the 244th ID, has 13'000 men and 150 to 200 guns ranging from 75 to 220 mm. The defensive system was less dense than in Toulon! (The French attacked with a maximum of 10'000 men!) There are resistance fighters in the city or around (the population revolted!)... It seems that the Germans could have been at a maximum of 20'000 men there...
On August 19, 1944, the Germans received orders from their superiors to withdraw, except for the garrisons of Toulon and Marseille who were ordered to resist at all costs.
[...]
Info: the battery of the Titan (one of the objectives of the commandos) was in fact only a perfectly camouflaged decoy.
In short, Toulon was better defended than Marseille! Oh yes, I do. Let's keep them!bru888 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm [...] By the way, I was thinking of making these commandos go away after their mission in the the Îles d'Hyères but, since there are many bunkers and guns in the Mediterranean Wall, they could paddle over to the mainland and help with that objective (as long as they stay out of the way of any regular German troops, that is; they are somewhat challenged by the Bautruppen that they face on the islands!). Agree?
Well, it may depend a little bit... one could still use non-concrete bunkers to depict some of them, like places fortified in a hurry or something. (Thus that would not impact the counter related to the Mediterranean Wall either.)
Two fortresses there as well?bru888 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm Although, I could put two fortresses in Toulon here and here (which approximate their positions in Operation Lila Denied):
[...]
They would not be part of the Mediterranean Wall (which is bunkers and coastal guns). What do you think? Too much or just right? [...]
). And we know that Toulon was actually even more defended than Marseille... So, I would say, "Yes, please, add these two fortresses there!" 
add these two units. Then add all the rest. And, once testing it, then we'll see whether we need to adapt something or not... for it may of course be too challenging, but it could as well be the opposite on overall... we'll see! And that's basically two "yes" from me: let's add these two fortresses near Toulon and let's keep these commandos... or, well, perhaps only the Free French commandos!The commandos shall be free to roam the map after their initial mission is completed. (The French commandos did land on the mainland in real life, at Cap Bénat and Cap Nègre, I believe.) Free to destroy and be destroyed!ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:24 pmOh yes, I do. Let's keep them!bru888 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:20 pm [...] By the way, I was thinking of making these commandos go away after their mission in the the Îles d'Hyères but, since there are many bunkers and guns in the Mediterranean Wall, they could paddle over to the mainland and help with that objective (as long as they stay out of the way of any regular German troops, that is; they are somewhat challenged by the Bautruppen that they face on the islands!). Agree?
These commandos have been used not only on these islands... So, to stick closer to History, we have to keep them. Now, if some player don't want to bother with them later, well, he can just put them to sleep (on the conquered islands or something) and then all's said - it would be his choice, after all!
Very good. Done, and the objective has been altered accordingly. For the sake of continuity, and because here they match these positions outside of Toulon in which they appeared in Operation Lila Denied, I have used two of the fortress names from that scenario:ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:35 pmTwo fortresses there as well?bru888 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 1:59 pm Although, I could put two fortresses in Toulon here and here (which approximate their positions in Operation Lila Denied):
[...]
They would not be part of the Mediterranean Wall (which is bunkers and coastal guns). What do you think? Too much or just right? [...]
Well, they were there previously (and could have been repaired since November 42
And this map, here down this link, is interesting...ColonelY wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:05 amWe have for example the map shown here, http://chez.jeannette.fleurs.over-blog. ... vence.html , that highlight somehow this point with the 1re DB in the NE of the map...
So, for our scenario, well... let's simply forget about this part of French paratroopers that could have been involved there as well! So, for our scenario, the "1re DB" or the "5e DB"? Oh, well, let's go with the "1re DB", as you said, and that's it!
