2nd Macedonian-Help!?!?!

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kaskoid
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2nd Macedonian-Help!?!?!

Post by kaskoid » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:19 am

Phillip is kicking my butt. Any pointers? This battle has me stumped.

If I keep causualties down-no win. Go to rout Philip--too many casualties. Vicious circle.

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Post by Redpossum » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:39 am

ahh, kaskoid, 2nd macedonian? Is that the name of the battle? I'm having a hard time recalling this one...

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Post by kaskoid » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:47 pm

Battle titled "2nd Macedonian War"; is first in Hellenistic Monarchies cyle immediately following Carthaginian cycle.
My force comprises the following units:
Legate lvl30
Skirm. lvl18
Scout lvl16
Aux. I lvl17
Hastati I lvl15
Hastati II lvl16
Leg. I lvl16
Leg. II lvl15
Leg. III lvl14
Nobles I lvl10
Aux. Arch. I lvl12
Leg. IV lvl12
Aux. II lvl4
Aux. III lvl8
Nobles II lvl5
Aux. Arch. II lvl1

His Guard Hvy Infantry tears me a new one every time, and is his last unit to break every time.

grimsta
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Post by grimsta » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:05 am

wanna post a screenie of the map? I may be able to help you then.

im at college and as you can guess LA isnt installed on the system :roll:
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sum1won
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Post by sum1won » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:45 pm

Och, not enough missles/cav. Archers are really useful for tearing into tougher foes. Cavalry are useful for isolating units.
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Post by coldknight » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:31 pm

Use the archers first, then bang them up with the calvary, then rout them out with the infantry/calvary, maybe this helps :D

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Post by Redpossum » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:57 pm

kaskoid, sorry I was soooo slow to reply here. RL has been kicking my butt lately.

Ok, I wonder if training is part of your problem? Let me refer you to a couple (hopefully, potentially) useful threads.

Here is a lengthy explanation of the Possum Approach to training and manuever in the single player game, with errata and addenda from other noted members of the community. Note that this thread is almost entirely opinion. Oh, and let me state clearly that the Possum Approach is not the only way, or even necessarily the best way, but it does work very well!

Here is an explanation of how the "special equipment" works. Note that "Big Hit" is "Armour Penetration". The special equipment is really only available in the later game, but you may want to read this now and slant your training accordingly. Note that it won't be possible to both aim toward a particular special equipment and follow my training advice above. I would suggest following my training advice (first thread above) until level 13, and then slanting your decisions toward the special equipment item of your choice.

kaskoid
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Post by kaskoid » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:03 am

Thanks, possum.
I bagged the old army and have started anew. I will follow your suggestions and see how much better I do.

Question about disbanding:
I assume you get nothing extra for upgrades, right? Just basic unit cost?

coldknight
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Post by coldknight » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:13 am

You are correct :wink:

kaskoid
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Possum's guidelines

Post by kaskoid » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:45 am

Many thanks for all the tips. Possum.

New army of 3 archers, 3 Aux. Cav., 3 Mdm Inf, 3 Legions and 3 Praetorians is really kicking but.

Its a real shame that the elephants suck so bad. Admit it, we'd all like to have at least one elephant/juggernaut that simply squooshed the other guy's troops.

Leader has had more than 40 promotions--not much left to get excited about for one-man-unit.

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Post by Redpossum » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:20 am

w00t!

I'm very glad to hear that my suggestions were helpful to you, kaskoid :)

You know, it's funny. I know that system works. You're probably about the 10th person I've explained it to that's come back and confirmed its success.

But I still get a little thrill out of every person who tells me, "Yeah, man, I'm kicking ass now!"

The one caveat I should offer you is that I do not do at all well in CoM. I still haven't finished the damned thing!

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Usefull Strategies

Post by robindavies » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:20 am

First off, to all of you that have not finished Cult of Mithras... oh you gotta finish it!!! Once you do, you will be able to build an army comprised of both Roman and Celts (so you can pick your favourite units and make one hell of an awesome little army... you can also choose the units from Mithras if you so desire, but they are rather powerful, so I am holding off purchasing them until I get to that section of the campaign... can't wait to fight those god-damned ghost legions with some ghost legions of my own to give them a taste of their own medicine).

Anyhow, for all of you out there who are looking for a few useful strategies, I have a few for you:

1. Cavalry is very useful when used properly, esp when dealing with archers and skirmishers. There is nothing worse than watching your best troops get cut to ribbons by a bunch of missile troops that are behind a wall of infantry. Try to use your troops to cut a nice hole somewhere in their lines and then send the cavalry units (which you hold back until the right moment) through the breaches in the enemy lines to cut their missile units to peices in no time. Archers and javalins are very weak vs horsemen... your scouts can even wipe them out nicely. MAke sure you upgrade the trample skill whenever possible, and also upgrade swordsmanship. Makes them a very effective unit. Another nice feature about horsemen is that you can use them to harass enemy troops and provide a nice decoy when necessary. use the disengage button after charging a group of missile units that are attcking you and then retreat before their heavy infantry reach you so that you don't get slaughtered (I am using 2 cavalry units... scouts and nobles, and they have been invaluable in taking out archers, esp. in battles where you need to keep your losses down). Can't stress how useful these guys are in a jam. I never used them much before (played the Rome campaign once, the celt campaign once and the Mithras campaign before i decided to do it all over again and I can't believe the difference they make when used properly). Also, with cavalry, if you find yourself in a situation where you are obviously going to win and have some order points left, you can order your cavalry units to run down routed units and get some extra kills before the time runs out to build up their experience (not to mention it is pretty bloody satisfying to run the bastards down as they flee from the battle).

2. Make sure that you upgrade all of your units' swordsmanship skill, as this increases the likelihood that they will hit more often. My first choices for skills are to max out swordsmanship, boost endurance, upgrade the officers skills when you can (so your men don't run away on you in the thick of things) and make sure they have a high endurance. I would also suggest that you have a skirmisher unit with the anti-elephant skill, as they are real bastards to deal with even with a praetorian unit with upgraded skills and armour and weaponry.

3. Archers: These guys are one of the most valuable units on the field, as you can use them to draw out enemy units that are being held in reserve. As soon as they are hit by a hail of arrows, they will attack, so use archers wisely to draw out the enemy when you need to defeat your enemy in time limited battles. Also, archers can be very effective against elephants when you purchase heavy missiles, as Elephants are never easy to defeat with hand to hand units (even highly trained and well equipped ones) and elephants can make a mess of your elite heavy units, which is never a good thing.

4. Peasants: although these troops are nearly useless, they can make great pin-cushions for wasting your enemies' missile ammunition, so provided keeping casualties down is not a victory condition, and you don't have anything better to send in, these cannon-fodder units can have a use and they are cheap to buy. You can also use peasants as a decoy to draw enemy forces away from something they are protecting (like archers).

5. Make sure if you are fighting a battle in which you need to keep casualties to a minimum, you don't put in units that don't stand a chance in the battle (like peasants or militia). they will just end up dead without doing much damage so you are better off without them until the next battle where casualties are not a concern.

Just a few ideas, but by using some of these tactics, I have managed to defeat each level on the hardest setting without even fielding the maximum amount of troops (as a matter of fact, I still do not have 20 units yet and have made it to the Roman vs Celts part of the Roman campaign, and just defeated the Germans pretty handily I might add).

Hope these tactics serve you well if you are stuck on a battle.

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Post by kongming » Sun May 20, 2007 6:30 pm

Robindavies, these are some great suggestions! I especially like the "peasants as pin-cushion" idea. It just breaks my heart to see my Legion I, the pride and joy of the army, brought to tears by enemy archers before a big enough hole opens in the lines to send the cav through. I hadn't found a great solution to that problem since I had been trying to keep my army slim and had disbanded all my less useful units. Maybe one better would be to recruit some velites for the job. They had least can have some use, adding even more missile power, rather than just acting as place holders. Two velites coming up! Thanks, the high level archers in CoM have been wreaking havoc.

And the general gist of this and other posts of using archers to soften up a tough opponent like the Guards infantry mentioned in the original, combined with bringing your cavalry into their flank or (preferrably) their rear once they closed with your front line boys is the key. For me, one of the things that makes LA such an intriguing game is the tangible pay off for patience. Having to hold you cav back, waiting for that hole to open up in the lines is, in my very limited experience, quite unique among computer games.

Caesar didn't trust his cavalry, but how could he not be pleased when his horseman run down the archers and skirmishers, then coming tearing into the backs of Celts.

I would be interested to hear your ideas on using them as decoys. Would you explain a bit more what you mean?

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Post by kongming » Mon May 21, 2007 2:10 am

Robindavies, I'd be interested to know how the scenario below matches with your ideas about using cavarly as decoys. I am copying in material (slightly modified) that I posted on "2nd ascension to venus" thread.

?2nd ascension of venus just played out in a surprising way for me; and it illustrates how important cavalry are both in the historic sense of strategy, but also for beating the game's AI.

I started with my battle line shifted to the left half of the field, with my 3 aux anchoring my right flank on the scrubby ridgeline. I put my heavies, 4 legions and one principe, in the valley, with 3 heavy cavalry on our left flank. The line was positioned pretty far back out of range of their archers. My archers and velites were behind the front line.

As the first wave of ghost legions advanced, my cav moved forward and then swung around to attack the rear of the ghosts. By the time they got there, my legionaries had sauted their way through the ghosts pretty easily. So I swung my cavalry back to the left flank to get them out of the marching line of the second wave. And this is where it got interesting....

The two ghost legions and 1 archer on the ghosts' right flank took a shine to my cavalry and marched towards them. I was able to get one cav to charge the archers, while the other two charged then disengaged from the legions. Once the ghost legions engaged with the cavarly, they attempted to track them down all over the field. This allowed me to send my cavalry racing off to run down both archers units, and pull two ghost legions out of the assault as the marched to and fro in pursuit."

This seems like a good example a "decoy" use of cavalry. I suppose there is some historical accuracy to this on a larger campaign scale, though on a small battlefield it can seem a bit silly. Nonetheless, it is a weakness of the AI that one can try to take advantage of.

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Post by dithyrambos » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:21 pm

Hi, I also need some help with this scenario. I'd like to try and beat it with my current army (I keep getting so close, but no cigar).
Here is what I have:
Lvl 29 Legate
Lvl 16 Legion
Lvl 14 Legion
Lvl 12 Legion
Lvl 4 Legion
Lvl 17 Auxilia
Lvl 16 Auxilia
Lvl 15 Auxilia
Lvl 13 Auxilia
Lvl 14 Levy Spearmen
Lvl 14 Levy Spearmen
Lvl 17 Militia
Lvl 17 Militia
Lvl 16 Militia
Lvl 13 Heavy Cavalry
Lvl 16 Light Cavalry
Lvl 3 Auxilia Cavalry
Lvl 10 Archers
Lvl 15 Velites
Lvl 16 Skirmishers
"Now Dithyrambos, the Thespian captain... by trade an architect and by no means a professional soldier, had already distinguished himself with such magnificent courage throughout the day..." From Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire

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Post by moj » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:08 am

dithyrambos wrote:Hi, I also need some help with this scenario. I'd like to try and beat it with my current army (I keep getting so close, but no cigar).
Here is what I have:
Lvl 29 Legate
Lvl 16 Legion
Lvl 14 Legion
Lvl 12 Legion
Lvl 4 Legion
Lvl 17 Auxilia
Lvl 16 Auxilia
Lvl 15 Auxilia
Lvl 13 Auxilia
Lvl 14 Levy Spearmen
Lvl 14 Levy Spearmen
Lvl 17 Militia
Lvl 17 Militia
Lvl 16 Militia
Lvl 13 Heavy Cavalry
Lvl 16 Light Cavalry
Lvl 3 Auxilia Cavalry
Lvl 10 Archers
Lvl 15 Velites
Lvl 16 Skirmishers
You've probably worked it out over the last eighteen months, but that army's going to get itself all killed out within seconds of engagement. I doubt there's any way in which it could win, even on 'normal'.

Other than one small scale 'kill general' engagement (the one with the archers at rear/right, and which seems to demand a full victory on 'very hard' rather than a simpler/stated 'kill general') I think this is the most challenging battle.

Given my standard army composition at this time - 2x aux, 2x aux cal, 4x aux arch, 4x praet - the only working tactic I can find on 'very hard' is...

*SPOILER*
* deploy cav to left; aux and aux arch on central hill; praet to right
* take out his cav with one of yours, move top left with remaining cav and hold until his heavy inf have moved, before sweeping across to kill his two arch (note: if your praet are too far forward at the time of their inevitable crushing defeat then the enemy will move back to your cav rather than forward to your arch, which will result in you timing out)
* take out his light inf with yours then pull them back to a) ensure they don't get other-enthusiastic and run off the hill, and b) cover archers in the endgame
* praet charge up from distance and take their punishment. And their punishment is *harsh*, regardless of level or additional equipment: they're basically there to draw enemy heavies onto your archers

*/SPOILER*

Best. Battle. Ever. There should be more casualty- and time-limited scenarios, imo. The Roman campaign peters out after Pharsalus to the point where Philippi, which really should be a 'boss battle', is only interesting if you're trying to win with four auxiliary archers and nowt else.

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Post by Redpossum » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:23 pm

Interesting comment, moj, about the "Boss Battle"

I wrestled with that question extensively when making my Britannicus campaign. In the end I wimped out and wound up (in 20-20 hindsight) making the last battle too easy.

Have you checked out the Britannicus campaign?

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Post by moj » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:00 am

I'm afraid I'm a Mac user, possum, so Britannicus is a no-go.

I've just played through the Roman campaign with a horseless army, which allows all my auxiliary archers enough time to get Ody's Arrows of Doooom, and finally managed the perfect Philippi:

Image

It's a challenge to kill his unit of archers without sustaining any casualties, but it's not what the battle should be about. After Cynocephalae the only battle that in required multiple attempts in 'all foot' mode was Vercellae, which is a shame.

Am I right in saying that neither the objectives nor the enemy unit levels change between normal, hard and very hard? It appears that they're simply harder to kill, but there's no explanation as to why. It might be better if the enemy levels were increased, and that these levels were visible (just as long as those L17 Men In Black don't get too much of a boost). Alternatively, required and permissable casualty figures could be adjusted, and the minutes available for time-limited scenarios reduced.

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Post by kongming » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:44 am

2nd Macedonian is also known at Dog Heads. There is a pretty extensive post about Dog Heads here. http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608
“There are only a few notes in the scale.
Yet you can always rearrange them.
You can never hear every song of victory”
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

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Post by kongming » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:49 am

moj, Brittanicus can be played on the MAC. See the conversation between Possum and myself in which he talked me through installing the Brittanicus mod on my MAC. http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1215

It is definitely worth the trouble to install it. In many ways it was my favorite campaign.
“There are only a few notes in the scale.
Yet you can always rearrange them.
You can never hear every song of victory”
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

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