Principes vs Legionaries Question, please.

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miki
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Principes vs Legionaries Question, please.

Post by miki » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:18 pm

Hi gents,

Principes cost is 600 denarii

Legionaries cost is 800 denarii

Their initial statistics are exactly the same, but Melee Armour: Principes value is 12 and Legionaries is 13.

For 200 denarii of difference, you can buy Weapons, Armour, Boots and helmets for the Principes, making them a lot more powerful than Legionaries...

Is that tiny single point of Melee Armour worth 200 points or I'm missing something else?
Last edited by miki on Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Saludos
Miki

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Post by lcjr » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:30 pm

Add to that it takes a Principe 30xp to reach lvl 2 and a Legionary 40xp. At Level 22 it's Principe-55779xp and Legionary-74424xp.

I just looked at some of my save games and there's no difference in stat gains between a Principe and Legionary, or any other unit for that matter. Every level gained adds 1 health and 2.5 morale/rounded down.

Not sure if they follow the exact same "perk tree" but I haven't noticed that much of a difference.

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Post by fatetriarrii » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:39 pm

I believe that Principles have slightly better stats, but act very similar. try buying both and then comparing the EXACT numbers (by holdng your mouse over the stat bar).

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Post by miki » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:57 pm

As I posted before, Principes and Legionaries share EXACTLY the same statistics, unless 1 extra point of Melee Armour -worth 200 denarii- for the Legionaries. Seems that their Skill path is more or less the same, and doesn't influence here.

So I still don't understand the pricing system.
Saludos
Miki

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Post by sum1won » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:53 pm

Im betting that its an oversight while balancing the beta- one of the units was changed to make them worthwhile/less overpowering, and the others were not changed.

Or maybe unit behaivior is different. I seem to recall seeing some warriors pushing spearmen around in a bog.

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Post by fatetriarrii » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:13 am

OK, to check, I went in and checked the actual statistics according to the numbers. I can only guess what many do based on what I already know, but I will show only the relevant ones and in their original form, so that you can get an unbiased show of what matters.

Ok, I checked ALL (and I mean ALL) the numbers listed in the SQUADS file (with the exception of some stuff which read things like "Select," "Accept," and "Cheer" because it looked like sound and/or graphics only). the following are the ONLY differences:



Cost: Legionaries are 200 denari more :P

PanicLimit = 6 Legionary vs 5 Princepe

"ArmorAbility" = 13 Legionary vs 12 Princepe

"ChanceToHitAbility" = 30 Leigonary vs 12 ( :shock: ) Princepe

"ExperienceAbility" = 60 Legionary (rising at +8.5 per level, rounded DOWN) vs 50 Princepe (rising at +7)


FirstLevel = 40 Legionary vs 30 Princepe

LevelStep = 500 Legionary vs 375 Princepe



Ok, my interpretation based on background facts I will mention and those shown above.

It looks like Legionaries caost 200 denari more, and take more experience, but you get slightly better armor and apparently greatly increased attack, along with slightly scarrier men. Hope I am right, I need confirmation Slitherine. :P

For context, the "Panic Limit" was right next to the "Panic Effecter" stat, so I assume it is a limit on how much panic can be inflicted. For comparison, both legionary and Princepe had 5 "Panic Effector"while a Celtic Warrior has 10 "Panic Effector" and 9 "Panic Limit". It could also mean hardier (less willing to route) men, too.

If you want to know why the experience doesn't go up a solid amount each level, I believe it is one of those things where the amount it goes up by goes up to, via another stat not shown because it was the same for both, "LevelStepDelta", 120 both times.

*UPDATE*

I figured out how the leveling works. The first level is as shown. The first step is the "Level Step". Every subsequent level, the level step is multiplied by the level step DELTA/100. And it is cumultative, so the first level for a legionary is 40. Second 540, third is 1140, and fourth is 1860...

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Post by miki » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:04 am

Hi Fatetriarii,

Thanks for looking into it. I'm at work now, so will have to wait a few hours to check it for myself. So if the "melee attack" factor of legionaries is 30 in the squads.txt file, then there's a glitch in the info displayed in the unit stats screen: there, the to hit value -or melee attack- is only 12, exactly the same as the Principes...

Slitherine?
Saludos
Miki

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Legionaires vs Principes

Post by honvedseg » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:47 pm

I've tried using both types, and didn't see a whole lot of difference in their performance, especially at low levels. I've been successfully running a battle line with almost all Principes, supported by Auxilia and Auxiliary Cav, plus a back row of 2-4 Aux.Archers.

The Principes have been the equal of everything I've met in the VERY HARD game EXCEPT for two or three specific high level (Level 17-20+) heavy infantry units which tore through everything I put up against them, until they made the mistake of going after my archers in the rough. One was at Cynocephalae (Dog's Head), another was an elite Spartan mercenary unit in an earlier Punic War scenario. Generally though, the Prinicipes have ripped through the main battle lines of almost every opponent, and had enough muscle left over to tackle a second or third victim, sometimes racking up 60-70 kills per battle. Why would I want to pay 200 Denarii more for a unit of similar stats? Of course, if that 12 vs 30 Attack thing is true...

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Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:17 pm

Yeah, i don't really know...

The 30 attack looks a little absurd, but I don't really know. it does seem like that could be the ONLY reason for such a price difference. I guess the only way to ifnd out is to run an in-game test ( :P ).

*UPDATE*

I did the test!

To set it up, I did the following:

Bought a noble on Normal and blitzed all the battles until the "Gallic Scouting Party" opr some-at. First one with lots of cavalry (all cavalry, actually). I had to get a principle for some, and advanced their levels, but sold them right before the scouting battle.

Next, I took my UN-UPGRADED LEGATE and, in turn, a principe and a legionary. I used no rally and the exact same setup (legate + heavy infantry bottom center, in defensive formation, on fast-forward) for both. The results were:

:arrow: Principe:

DEFEATED, 23 kills to 18 losses (the leader got 1 kill and 1 loss)


:arrow: Legionary:

VICTORIOUS, 60 kills and 9 losses (the leader got 2 kills and no losses)

This could be luck, but I doubt it. It is also a little hard to believe that +1 armor can do that much, but more tests can find out. :)


*UPDATE 2*

O can't believe that Legion Arena has THIS much luck to it...

I couldn't believe that the test was aso blindly in favor of Legionaries, so I ran it twice, from the save, on Principes. The first time, they did worse (14 kills to 24 losses). The second, they achieved resounding victory! (41 kills to 12 losses)

I think i will have to test them with the same seed. i hope saved games save their seed, as that is what I will base my conclusion on...

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Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:04 pm

Sorry to make a seperate post over this, but it is quite suprising. I have run and re-run the test time and time again, wtih the results varying from 3 kills and 22 losses to 60 kilss and 3 losses. for both legionaries and principles. I can't say if there is much of a difference because their behavior has been almost exaclty the same. The squad just seems to win a couple, lose a couple. win and lose some, win more, lose more, maybe lose more...

No pattern I can see. :cry:

It isn't completely random, either, because I ran some tests on praetorians and they fared fine (though they got shaky a couple times).

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Post by lcjr » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:56 pm

I think a better test would be to get someone else and go online. One player gets a single Legionary and the other a Principe. Leave the generals out of it and simply line them up and let them charge. Do a best out of 5 or 7 then switch.

miki
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Post by miki » Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:46 pm

Bump! :shock:

I don't want to be a pita, but an official answer would be a great thing... :roll:

Slitherine... ? :?:

TIA
Miki

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Post by grimsta » Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:53 pm

for me...always Princepes.....just gotta love the polybian legions :lol:

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Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:03 pm

There are lots of stats & its always a matter of balancing to get it right. We think the values are good, and it woudl need extensive testing to prove us wrong ;)

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Post by miki » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:41 pm

Iain,

Thanks for the reply, but:

1- the screen - in game - stats gives identycal stats but one more point of melee armour for the Legionaries (12 vs 13). Principes costs 600 and Legionaries 800 denarii. Looks weird that one single point of melee armour costs so much, imho, but you never know...
2- The squads.txt gives 30 points of melee attack for the Legionaries and 12 for the Princeps, as pointed by Fatetriarii, while the screen stats gives 12 to both...
3- Seems that Legionaries gain in experience is costlier than principe's, as per the squads.txt file also...
4- So something is broken here as points 1 and 2 seems to be contradictory...
Saludos
Miki

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Post by Redpossum » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:52 pm

iainmcneil wrote:There are lots of stats & its always a matter of balancing to get it right. We think the values are good, and it woudl need extensive testing to prove us wrong ;)
LOL, Iain, that was a reply worthy of Ron Ziegler (Dick Nixon's press secretary, and still legendary in Washington for his supremely evasive and uninformative replies to questions from the press.)

No offense, but...that answer contained no new information, and answered none of our questions.

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Post by miki » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:57 pm

Hi again

I have checked again the squads.txt file. Seems that Legionaries melee attack is 12, same as princeps, not 30 (30 was the shoot to hit rating...

So, we have two different units with only one point of melee armour of difference, and worth one 600 denarii and the other 800.
Saludos
Miki

fatetriarrii
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Post by fatetriarrii » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:08 am

Really? :oops: I feel so embarrased.

but anyway, *clap*, what we need is an official testing of this, like Ian said. If the game isn't balanced, let us get down to it! These great people have enough on their minds as it is. We need a new competition designed around legionaries and principles instead of elephants. Anyone want to step up to the plate? I will help :wink:

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Post by sum1won » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:51 am

Perhaps somebody can cobble together a crude patch based on editing the squad stuff? We can see how well the units balance afterwards.

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Post by fatetriarrii » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:00 am

Alright, I can do that. I haven't had much multiplayer experience, though, so could an expert (such as you, sum1won, who is on top of the (well, rather short) ladder) tell me what is wrong and suggest some changes, I will make them and help distribute them, and then we can make a touranment to test them.

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