balancing LA

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lord_ley
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balancing LA

Post by lord_ley » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:24 pm

Would the modding squad please try to give futrher thought on balancing the game. Indeed i think it's the best thing that ou could do. Fate has opened the way and maybe those of us who don't have the skills can at least help in the thinking part of the process tat can lead us to a more balanced, modded version of LA. Please try to do something so that we can diversify the unit types and there capacities. I don't know maybe spearmen should be given from the strat master anti cavalry or associate it with their deffensive formation. Maybe heavy cav could have expert trample from the start and heavy infantry master antiinfantry. That would add an extra strength to the snake/fox/hen aspect of the game. That could be just a beginnoing we could all think of more.
THen once a definitive version is accepted by all we could encourage everybody oi download it and we'd have a very high quality, tactically intriguing version of multiplayer LA.
I presonnaly think that would be great.
I am sure you guys can make it come true.


All hail the modding squad!!

grimsta
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Post by grimsta » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:30 pm

not a bad plan. my aid would be limited tho as skinners are the blondes of games modding :wink:
One mans Rabbit is another mans Laplander - Boris Johnson

lord_ley
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Post by lord_ley » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:45 pm

lol still your reskins are nearlly as cool as Slitherines ghost legions ans that addmittedly adds something to the game. Also if you can reskin the heavy cav and mak it look like cataphracts or redesign spearman to look like greek hoplites... that could be a good improvement and add coherence o the modd

fatetriarrii
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Post by fatetriarrii » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:09 am

Well, I am working on it (thank you for mentioning me :oops: :D ). Currently, because a complete pver-hual of the stats on the scale I am planning would be a nightmare to calulate stat changes for, I am trying to set up an equation. I can get back to you in a bit, but i need to go to bed now :P

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Post by spedius01 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:09 pm

Ave lord_ley, grimsta and fatetriarrii,

I hear you.

I think that "when the dust settles" and we can clearly see where our mods have taken us we can maybe post a modder's manual. However, we have a long way to go before we are in a position to say "that's it, all mods done".

Don't be discouraged, keep the suggestions rolling in. It's good to know that there are others who are thinking about ways to improve Legion Arena.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo
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~~~Jim Poulton~~~
"If you build it, they will come"
North London Wargames Group

fatetriarrii
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Balancing LA

Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:15 am

Yes, yes. Helpers are welcome. I shall just outline what has been done so far (by me :wink: ):

I have been thinking that complete over-hual of the system like I am planning is not going to be possible by gut feeling, so I have thought up some equations. First, I decided that changing the price is to drastic right now, so everything like that shall stay, and I shall change other attributes to match up. Now, I decided we needed to guarantee that every unit has the same cost/return ratio. To calculate the cost, I need to find out what constitutes its cost.

First, the money. That is simple, the value is shown.

Second, experience. I assume that the average level for a unit in a multiplayer game is 4, so the experience cost would be the amount it takes to get to level 4.

Finally, the order points cost. That is also listed, so no problems there.

Now comes the problem of ratio, is a point of experience equivalent to a point of money? No. It is a question of ratio. So money and experience is easy, money is over 5000 and experience would be over 15000. The hard part is order points. Lets assume the basic amount (no levels). So, you start at five thousand. At aruond 100 more a second over a five minute battle would be 35000. But we aren't using them all the time, so let us say around half is 15000. Same as experience.

To simplify things, we can change 5000, 15000, and 15000 to 1, 3, and 3. And then switching stuff around, we can derive the following:

Money * 3 + experience + order points cost.

I will get into the actual "value" in a bit. gotta go. have fun,

fate :D

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Post by grimsta » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:22 am

Maths nerd :wink:

Fate, this is fantastic! Really impressive feat of mathematics there my friend - i wish i had half the intelectual capacity to figure that out!!
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Post by lcjr » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:38 am

those of us who don't have the skills
The data files that are being edited are in plain text format. Just open up squads.txt and look at the numbers it's all pretty self-explanatory. If you can post on a forum you have the skills you need to edit most of the files.

fatetriarrii
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Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:02 am

grimsta wrote:Maths nerd :wink:

Fate, this is fantastic! Really impressive feat of mathematics there my friend - i wish i had half the intelectual capacity to figure that out!!
Skinner geek :P


Update, I miscalculated the amount of order points. You start with 20k and get 150 per second (I thought it looked a bit small). So the updated equation is:

Money * 6 + Experience * 2 + Order Points

Gotta get my homework done, though :(

Have fun!!!

-fate :D

grimsta
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Post by grimsta » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:10 am

fatetriarrii wrote:Skinner geek :P
touch?©
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Re: Balancing LA

Post by Redpossum » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:04 am

fatetriarrii wrote:Yes, yes. Helpers are welcome. I shall just outline what has been done so far (by me :wink: ):

I have been thinking that complete over-hual of the system like I am planning is not going to be possible by gut feeling, so I have thought up some equations. First, I decided that changing the price is to drastic right now, so everything like that shall stay, and I shall change other attributes to match up. Now, I decided we needed to guarantee that every unit has the same cost/return ratio. To calculate the cost, I need to find out what constitutes its cost.

First, the money. That is simple, the value is shown.

Second, experience. I assume that the average level for a unit in a multiplayer game is 4, so the experience cost would be the amount it takes to get to level 4.

Finally, the order points cost. That is also listed, so no problems there.

Now comes the problem of ratio, is a point of experience equivalent to a point of money? No. It is a question of ratio. So money and experience is easy, money is over 5000 and experience would be over 15000. The hard part is order points. Lets assume the basic amount (no levels). So, you start at five thousand. At aruond 100 more a second over a five minute battle would be 35000. But we aren't using them all the time, so let us say around half is 15000. Same as experience.

To simplify things, we can change 5000, 15000, and 15000 to 1, 3, and 3. And then switching stuff around, we can derive the following:

Money * 3 + experience + order points cost.

I will get into the actual "value" in a bit. gotta go. have fun,

fate :D
I really can't agree with this. I think you're over-simplifying badly, making some highly questionable assumptions, and on top of that your basic calculations seem to be off.

Look at money, for starts.

You say "money is over 5000". The only way that makes any sense at all is if you mean divided by 5000. And if that's the case, how did you get from "divided by 5000" to "*3" ?

You said that you were simplifying 5000 to 1. So it looks to me like you are not only multiplying instead of dividing, you're using the wrong number.

Huh?

The same looks to apply to the rest of the equation

Exp should be divided by 3, and instead you are using it at *1

Order cost should also be divided by 3, and instead you are using it at *1

Or have I totally misunderstood your whole post?

fatetriarrii
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Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:11 am

Oh, I know I have been unclear. I have not been in a very clear mood today. Sorry.

You are right, but you forget that multiplying is simpler than dividing, so the ratio between x/1, y/3, and z/3 is the same as 3x, 1y, and 1z. Just multiplying everything by three. But you will see I had to change it because I miscalculated (or mis-guesstimated) the total amount of order points. I have revised it to money * 6 + experience * 2 + order points because there was twice the amount of order points as I originaly thought. Which means that it wouldbe over a number twice as large which means multiplying the other numbers by two instead.

Ps, yes my basic assupmtions are a good deal incorrect, but this is just to get an idea of what needs to be done in the way of balance.

fatetriarrii
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Balancing LA Cont.

Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:52 am

OK, after figuring out the cost we need to find out the value. This is a little bit trickier. To do this, I have gone through and averaged every stat between every unit. I know that , for example, some units don't do range damage, but I figure this will compensate for the fact that, in the end, a unit that stands against ranged but not against melee is probably worth less than one which does the opposite (in this game, at least). So, I have created the "average unit" to compare everyone one against. I shall show it by comparing it with a peasant:

First, melee:

peasant damage = 3/50 * 77/100 * (7 - 9 or 0 + 1 = 1) * 100 = 4.62 - 35 = -30.38 (the 100 is just to keep the numbers above one)

Average unit damage = 13/100 * 99/100 * (17 - 1 or 16 + 3 = 19) * 100 = 244.53 - 25 = 219.53

219.53 - (-30.38 ) = 249.91

So the poor peasant gets trounced. For the reasoning behind those equations see this thread. Now for ranged. Here the peasant can only receive damage, so that is what will be shown:

Killer shot chance * enemy health + normal shot - enemy health.

Average unit ranged damage = (12/100 * 3/20 * 1/100 * 100 * 25) + (12/100 * (6 - 1 + 3 = 8 ) * 100) = 96.45

Alright, and now for the last one, trample. Here peasants could go both ways, so I will include the calculations:

Okay, so this was really hard is going to be really wrong. I know for fact that any unit can trample or be trampled, but many are listed as having 0 trmaple chance or 100 trample avoidance. So slitherine needs to cough up the formula, but in the mean time I changed all 0 tample chances to 1 and all 100 trample avoidanves to 90. Here are the figures according to that estimate:

Peasant 1/100 * 1/2 * 35 * 100 = 17.5

Average unit 7/50 * 3/10 * 25 * 100 = 105

105 - 17.5 = 82.5

and averaging the following numbers:

249.91
96.45
82.5

we get: 142.953

Now, that is just a man-to-man basis, so to increase the scope to a battalion-to-battalion setting we need to multiply by numbers and morale. I will also divide by a hundred because I hate big nmbers just as much as I do small ones.

142.953 * 48 * 200 / 100

13723.488 or around 14000. Compare that to the peasants approximation of 9,290 cost. Assuming that all units should maintain this ratio (which is what I am about to do, unless someone offers a better "base unit") than the golden ratio is around:

14000/9000 or 14/9. In the cost/value originally outlined at the beginning of the cost thread, that is 9/14.

Have Fun,

Fate :D

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Post by lcjr » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:24 am

After rereading the original post I'm not seeing any examples of a lack of balance. What you're talking about sounds more like "munchkinism".
Please try to do something so that we can diversify the unit types and there capacities. I don't know maybe spearmen should be given from the strat master anti cavalry or associate it with their deffensive formation. Maybe heavy cav could have expert trample from the start and heavy infantry master antiinfantry.
That's your job as the commander. Basically that's the most enjoyable aspect of the game is to take green recruits and turn them into elite killing machines. Just remember the way you envision units may not be the same way someone else does. Besides the campaign is already quite well balanced and winnable with a wide variety army compisitions. What would be the fun in starting with uber units?

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A question of balance

Post by honvedseg » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:18 pm

Spearmen currently don't seem to have ANY decent offensive upgrades. They start out fairly weak and don't improve. It strikes me that they (as well as Velites) should get the options of better "swordsman" skill, feint, and other promotions which other units get, just available later on their lists.

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Post by fatetriarrii » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:01 pm

If someone wants to balance the upgrades, go for it. I am currently just wroking on the units.

Ps, Sum1won is right about anti-skills, swordsman is a better alternative.

Pps, if my mod wroks right, it should correct the discrepency between spearmen and light infantry.

Update, I have been thinking about trample and I think the following equation for the chance might work:

(Trampler's trample chance + 100 - opponent's avoid trample) / 200

As it accounts (sort of) for the incredibly high amount of infantry tramples when the lines join. So the revised peasant value for trample would be:

Peasant (0 + 45) / 200 * 100 = 22.5

Average Unit (14 + 70) / 200 * 100 = 42

-42 + 22.5 = -19.5

averaged with -249.91 and -82.25 we get 117.22. Times the amount of men and the morale over two, it is 11,253.12. which is around 9/11 cost/returhn ratio.

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Re: A question of balance

Post by Redpossum » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:49 pm

honvedseg wrote:Spearmen currently don't seem to have ANY decent offensive upgrades. They start out fairly weak and don't improve. It strikes me that they (as well as Velites) should get the options of better "swordsman" skill, feint, and other promotions which other units get, just available later on their lists.
Well, they get skills that add to their damage if they can hit. What they lack is many upgrades that improve their chance to get a hit, so all that lovely damage can come into play....

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