Game question.

Sengoku Jidai: Shadow of the Shogun is a turn-based tactical and strategic game set during this turbulent time; primarily focusing on the Japanese Warring States period and Japanese Invasion of Korea. Other armies from East Asia are also made available to simulate different conflicts across the region.
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stormbringer3
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Game question.

Post by stormbringer3 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:31 pm

What differences wil this title have vs. Pike and Shot other than the era?
Thanks for any info.

rbodleyscott
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Re: Game question.

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:42 pm

Well, of course, the armies are completely different from European armies, the units are different*, and the different major army groupings (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Mongols/Jurchen) each have different tactical doctrines which is reflected in their unit organisation and army composition. There are also the more off-the-wall armies such as Ikko-ikki and Wokou pirates, who very much do their own thing.

(*Examples: Chinese infantry battalions with 16% light spear, 84% missile-men - bow, crossbow, handgun or matchlock - and regimental guns. The light spearmen form the front rank and give +100 POA at impact if the unit receives an enemy charge, but not if it charges. Korean infantry battalions with 50% assorted polearms - mainly spears and tridents but treated overall as heavy weapon - and 50% bow or matchlock, sometimes also with regimental guns).

There are a number of enhancements throughout the game, but the most important one is the addition of generals and their effects.

1) Units outside command range of a general are less manoeuvrable. (They lose their free 45 degree turn. This may not sound like much but in fact it often makes a significant difference). Normally generals exert command range only over the units in their own division, although the C-in-C can give command control to any units in his range.

2) Generals give a significant combat bonus (+50 POA) to the unit they are with when it is in close combat.

3) Generals give a cohesion test bonus to nearby units when their own unit is in close combat. (Inspiring by example).

4) Generals cause the unit they are with to take a rally test each turn if needed. (Without a general there is only a small chance of a unit taking a rally test each turn).

5) Generals can duel with an enemy general if their units are in close combat. Each general has his own duelling skill rating.

6) If a general is incapacitated (wounded/killed), which can only occur when his unit is in close combat, nearby friendly units take a cohesion test. The distance at which they have to test is greater for CinC and ally-generals (but ally generals only affect their own division)

7) Generals can move from unit to unit within their own division.

8 ) Generals get promoted or demoted in the strategic campaigns depending on their victories or defeats. This determines which general will be C-in-C of the army, which sub-generals, and which passed over for command of a division.

There are various additions to the campaign system - such as neutral states that can join either side, and sometimes change sides again. The campaign AI has been improved, and other aspects enhanced.

There are various other changes all over the game to suit the Far Eastern styles of warfare - e.g. bowmen can shoot overhead, missile-armed cavalry can evade (not just lights), spearmen are more disordered by difficult terrain than infantry with other weapon types, the semi-obsolete pre-matchlock handguns used by some Ming units are modelled, etc. etc.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: Game question.

Post by jomni » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:58 am

deployment doctrine is a variable in the Army Lists.
This makes it possible for Japanese to have a different deployment doctrine from Continental Chinese / Korean in skirmish.

Example. Continental armies deploy as per usual conventions. Centre division, cavalry divisions on each flank, reserve division. For Japanese, each division are combined arms: meaning they can have both cavalry and infantry no matter where their position is in the army.

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Re: Game question.

Post by Zipuli » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:24 am

Any chance some of these enhancements pay a visit in Pike and Shot? I would love seeing Adolphus in the battlefield and some HRE states changing sides during campaign...

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Re: Game question.

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:39 am

Zipuli wrote:Any chance some of these enhancements pay a visit in Pike and Shot? I would love seeing Adolphus in the battlefield and some HRE states changing sides during campaign...
Maybe, one day, when other projects permit.
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Re: Game question.

Post by Zak0r » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:57 pm

I have a question regarding the rules. Is it intended that Horse Archers can't be attacked by infantry?

Ok, I can understand that swordsmen or teppo wouldn't be able to do much against them (or wouldn't want to charge) but spearmen should at least be a threat.

I'm asking because I encountered a rather silly situation in the second tutorial scenario. I have sent a swordsman and a spearmen from the center to assist the troops on the left flank. One of my cavalry units is in retreat because they got flanked while chasing those pesky always-evading korean horse archers :D and the general died. The other one is still chasing horse archers without catching even a single one. So I have two teppos and the said infantry units there. One of the enemies has attacked my teppo in melee so both units are bound to the spot. But my reinforcements can't help my teppo because they can't target the horse archer even standing right next to it, and the other teppo can't help either because it can't fire on targets engaged in melee combat. I think they should at least be able to chase them away and liberate my teppo.

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Re: Game question.

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:10 pm

Zak0r wrote:I have a question regarding the rules. Is it intended that Horse Archers can't be attacked by infantry?

Ok, I can understand that swordsmen or teppo wouldn't be able to do much against them (or wouldn't want to charge) but spearmen should at least be a threat.

I'm asking because I encountered a rather silly situation in the second tutorial scenario. I have sent a swordsman and a spearmen from the center to assist the troops on the left flank. One of my cavalry units is in retreat because they got flanked while chasing those pesky always-evading korean horse archers :D and the general died. The other one is still chasing horse archers without catching even a single one. So I have two teppos and the said infantry units there. One of the enemies has attacked my teppo in melee so both units are bound to the spot. But my reinforcements can't help my teppo because they can't target the horse archer even standing right next to it, and the other teppo can't help either because it can't fire on targets engaged in melee combat. I think they should at least be able to chase them away and liberate my teppo.
Warrior spearmen (samurai and early ashigaru) can charge cavalry, but Medium Foot spearmen (Later Ashigaru) can't.
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Re: Game question.

Post by Zak0r » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:30 am

Thanks for the clarification!

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Re: Game question.

Post by jomni » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:16 am

Zak0r wrote:Thanks for the clarification!
It's about the doctrine and tactics. Medium foot assumes they need to keep close formation. This makes it hard for them to actually catch the horses which can quickly disperse when a spear wall is marching towards them (even when engaging another unit). Warriors on the other hand are free to do whatever they want and chase down the horses individually or set up ambushes as there is no formation doctrine to constrain their actions.

In the later Sengoku period, the Ashigaru foot troops are now drilled into formations unlike in the early era. While the Samurai will always be Warriors.

Chinese and Koreans are medium foot and they prefer shooting horses than fighting them at close combat.

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Re: Game question.

Post by Zak0r » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:42 pm

That does make sense. Thanks for the details.

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Re: Game question.

Post by kongxinga » Sat May 07, 2016 8:42 am

Is the "only Warriors can charge horse rule" a modification of the new rule in Pike and shot that melee only infantry can charge horses? I recall there was a later change in Pike and shot which allowed all melee infantry units to charge horses. I believe all melee infantry usually makes the unit heavy foot, but what I see here is that there are all spear medium foot that can't charge horse while all melee warriors can.

What is the intuitive way to view an all melee medium foot, as compared to an all melee heavy foot? How are they fighting differently? Density of formation? I don't recall I've seen medium foot melee only units in Pike and shot yet since they tend to be keils or heavy foot.

Would this mean in Shadows of the Shogun Heavy melee only foot can charge horse, medium melee only foot cannot charge horse while warriors can charge horse?

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Re: Game question.

Post by Huskie » Sun May 08, 2016 7:25 pm

kongxinga wrote:Is the "only Warriors can charge horse rule" a modification of the new rule in Pike and shot that melee only infantry can charge horses? I recall there was a later change in Pike and shot which allowed all melee infantry units to charge horses. I believe all melee infantry usually makes the unit heavy foot, but what I see here is that there are all spear medium foot that can't charge horse while all melee warriors can.

What is the intuitive way to view an all melee medium foot, as compared to an all melee heavy foot? How are they fighting differently? Density of formation? I don't recall I've seen medium foot melee only units in Pike and shot yet since they tend to be keils or heavy foot.

Would this mean in Shadows of the Shogun Heavy melee only foot can charge horse, medium melee only foot cannot charge horse while warriors can charge horse?
More than likely yes, however, archers get no penalty (unless the mounted troops have amour; see detailed tooltip when hovering over the firing icon) for shooting at mounted troops, not sure if there is a penalty for shooting at light horse though.
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