Shooting???

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Thaddeus
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Shooting???

Post by Thaddeus » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:06 pm

I am new to the game and currently reading and re-reading the rules. I am a former Warhammer and LotR player but crave a good historically accurate game. My chief concern/question is the shooting and the ranges. Looking at the rules, using 25/28mm models, for bows and artillery, 6 - 12 inches seems very, very short. Am I reading or interpreting the MUs incorrectly or is this the real deal? If it is the intent that these ranges are this short, can someone validate this for me???

v/r
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Re: Shooting???

Post by david53 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:14 pm

Thaddeus wrote:I am new to the game and currently reading and re-reading the rules. I am a former Warhammer and LotR player but crave a good historically accurate game. My chief concern/question is the shooting and the ranges. Looking at the rules, using 25/28mm models, for bows and artillery, 6 - 12 inches seems very, very short. Am I reading or interpreting the MUs incorrectly or is this the real deal? If it is the intent that these ranges are this short, can someone validate this for me???

v/r
Thaddeus
Yes its four inchs (4MU) for Mounted bows
and
Up to four inches effective range for Foot Bows
Up to six inchs long range.
I'm sure someone more knowledgable can explain why those ranges were picked.

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Post by hammy » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:25 pm

Shooting ranges are linked to the speed of movement and overall scale of the game. Movement of for example cavalry is such that archers will get at most two volleys of missiles before determined cavalry charge home.

The overall scale of FoG is aimed at representing large battles where a group of archers would not be able to fire from one end of the line of battle to the other. If anything it is the scale of WAB that is odd.

I accept that with 28mm figures the shooting ranges compared to the figures is very short but if you consider that each base is representing several hundred men and the 4 MU range is probably about a couple of hundred yards it seems more reasonable.

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Post by deadtorius » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:57 pm

25mm player here myself, and I found the ranges kind of short at first glance too. After a few games you get used to it and it is not that short really. Give it a whirl and a few games later you will see it all makes sense. :wink:

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Post by marioslaz » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:22 pm

I really don't see why this thread is about 25mm. Shooting range are tied to troop movement, and are all in MU. So a kind of troop which wants to charge shooters will suffer a determined amount of shots whatever miniature scale.
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Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:25 pm

marioslaz wrote:I really don't see why this thread is about 25mm.

Because the figures are bigger so the range is shorter,visually, compared to the figures.
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Post by Blathergut » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:59 pm

marioslaz wrote:I really don't see why this thread is about 25mm. Shooting range are tied to troop movement, and are all in MU. So a kind of troop which wants to charge shooters will suffer a determined amount of shots whatever miniature scale.

and also, how far Bgs can shoot, in relation to base width/depth also changes...everything shrinks in 25mm...kind of like commander ranges....TCs can't stretch beyond 2 bases in 25mm :(

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:00 pm

But, of course, the real point is that the figures are only tokens and the figure scale bears no relation to the ground scale, so of course the shooting ranges looks odd when related to the size of the figures.

If you want your figures to fit the ground scale you need to use 2mm figures (even that is generous), and then 6 inch archery range would look long indeed.

However, the ground scale is what determines archery range, not the figure scale.

If you want to play large battles (10,000 men plus a side) with 28mm figures, there will inevitably be this disparity if you want to use realistic shooting ranges.

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Post by paulburton » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:54 pm

Of course, you do not need to use a 1 inch MU with 25 mm bases. By not specifying a standard for movement rates you can convert however you wish for the purposes of the game. To keep the base width/movement rate/ranges/command zones equivalent then use an MU of 1.5 inches with 25 mm figures as the bases are 50% wider than for 15 mm..

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Post by marioslaz » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:47 pm

paulburton wrote:Of course, you do not need to use a 1 inch MU with 25 mm bases. By not specifying a standard for movement rates you can convert however you wish for the purposes of the game. To keep the base width/movement rate/ranges/command zones equivalent then use an MU of 1.5 inches with 25 mm figures as the bases are 50% wider than for 15 mm..
OK, but all shrink when you use 25mm, shooting range and moving distance, so the effect is the same. The only thing that doesn't shrink is base size, for obvious reasons. You can change MU to make it proportional to miniature scale, let's say 40mm, but is only a visual effect and nothing change either you play it in 15mm, or in 25mm.
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Post by hammy » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:19 am

marioslaz wrote:
paulburton wrote:Of course, you do not need to use a 1 inch MU with 25 mm bases. By not specifying a standard for movement rates you can convert however you wish for the purposes of the game. To keep the base width/movement rate/ranges/command zones equivalent then use an MU of 1.5 inches with 25 mm figures as the bases are 50% wider than for 15 mm..
OK, but all shrink when you use 25mm, shooting range and moving distance, so the effect is the same. The only thing that doesn't shrink is base size, for obvious reasons. You can change MU to make it proportional to miniature scale, let's say 40mm, but is only a visual effect and nothing change either you play it in 15mm, or in 25mm.
True but compared to Warhammer Ancients which was where this thread started FoG ranges are indeed short. In WAB I think a basic foot bowman has a range of 24" and longbow something like 28!

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Post by timurilenk » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:06 am

hammy wrote:True but compared to Warhammer Ancients which was where this thread started FoG ranges are indeed short. In WAB I think a basic foot bowman has a range of 24" and longbow something like 28!
That would truly make the English longbow armies invincible!

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Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:14 am

hammy wrote:
marioslaz wrote:
paulburton wrote:Of course, you do not need to use a 1 inch MU with 25 mm bases. By not specifying a standard for movement rates you can convert however you wish for the purposes of the game. To keep the base width/movement rate/ranges/command zones equivalent then use an MU of 1.5 inches with 25 mm figures as the bases are 50% wider than for 15 mm..
OK, but all shrink when you use 25mm, shooting range and moving distance, so the effect is the same. The only thing that doesn't shrink is base size, for obvious reasons. You can change MU to make it proportional to miniature scale, let's say 40mm, but is only a visual effect and nothing change either you play it in 15mm, or in 25mm.
True but compared to Warhammer Ancients which was where this thread started FoG ranges are indeed short. In WAB I think a basic foot bowman has a range of 24" and longbow something like 28!
I remember playing Early Achaemenid Persians vs Wood Elves under WFB. (The wood elf archers have even longer range IIRC). I hid all my Persian archers behind a hill, then popped over and shot when the elves had moved into range. Shot about half of them on the first shot.

I can see that FOG might take a bit of getting used to after that.

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Post by marioslaz » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:24 am

rbodleyscott wrote:I remember playing Early Achaemenid Persians vs Wood Elves under WFB. (The wood elf archers have even longer range IIRC).
I was ever wandering about the reason elves, like Legolas in LoTR, whom ever lived in forests have a such skill in archery. How can they train in distant shooting with all that trees which hinder the sight? :wink:
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Post by timurilenk » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:35 am

rbodleyscott wrote:I hid all my Persian archers behind a hill, then popped over and shot when the elves had moved into range. Shot about half of them on the first shot.

I can see that FOG might take a bit of getting used to after that.
Machine gunners really :-)

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ranges

Post by benos » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:45 am

having played both wfb and wab [same but romans etal] the ranges seem baser on maximum range of 300 yards for a longbow. However, when cavalry can move 18" or 24" [each ruler ] compared to 5" the range is less disparate than it seems.
Also morale and casualties are inverted.
I would suggest a larger mu for 28mm though
Ben

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Post by david53 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:02 am

rbodleyscott wrote:[
I remember playing Early Achaemenid Persians vs Wood Elves under WFB. (The wood elf archers have even longer range IIRC). I hid all my Persian archers behind a hill, then popped over and shot when the elves had moved into range. Shot about half of them on the first shot.

I can see that FOG might take a bit of getting used to after that.

Did I miss the Persians in the films then? :wink:

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Re: ranges

Post by hammy » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:20 pm

benos wrote:having played both wfb and wab [same but romans etal] the ranges seem baser on maximum range of 300 yards for a longbow. However, when cavalry can move 18" or 24" [each ruler ] compared to 5" the range is less disparate than it seems.
Also morale and casualties are inverted.
I would suggest a larger mu for 28mm though
Ben
Exactly, FoG is a game to a very different scale.

Using larger MU for 25mm is fine as long as you use larger tables. If you use a 40mm MU for 25mm then a standard 6 by 4 table effectively becomes 3'9" by 2'6" which while it will work is not going to be fun for some armies.

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Post by shall » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:14 pm

FWIW we use 25mm MU for 6x4 tables for 28mm games; and 40mm MU on a table tennis table here at home with our 28mms.

Both work really well as in practice the MU is scaled to work well with the table boundaries - which is perhaps what matters most.

Si
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Post by DaiSho » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:10 pm

Blathergut wrote:everything shrinks in 25mm...
Maybe in your case Blatherguts... but from all reports you blame it on the cold :P

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