can bring two allied nations that are the same?

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nigelemsen
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can bring two allied nations that are the same?

Post by nigelemsen » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:55 pm

Can you bring more than one allied command of the same allied nationality. Egm could dominate roman bring 2 lots of alan allies? E.g upto 2s command cv. O-12 cav per allied cv,
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Post by deadtorius » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:46 am

My guess would be no. I believe you can only have 1 of any ally general listed.
However I can not find anywhere in the rules or the army list books that prevents having more than one of the same allied general.

The allies army list lists the maximum your army can have of each troop type, the same as your regular army list.
So in your example the maximum allied cav is 0-12 total regardless of how many allied commanders you take.

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Post by nigelemsen » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:13 am

Yes I not been able to anything in the rules that claifies it. Maybe it is one of those "understandings". Atleast dbm gave you general list at top of the army list. Its not often I defend dbm over fog :)
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Post by philqw78 » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:29 am

The ally list gives the maximum allies allowed. I don't think there are any with 2 generals.

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Post by Caledonian » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:39 am

Armies which are restricted in the number of allies they can use have this indicated in the notes preceding each list. eg Later Seleucid. Armies with no such notes can use as many alied commands as they can have allied generals.
The allied list attached to each army lists the maximim number of bases that each allied command can have, thus only one commander. These are then subtracted from the maximum in the main list meaning that you could field up to three allied contingents.

Several lists eg. Gallic, have references to "other Gallic allied commanders..." which would indicate that several allied commands are indeed allowed.

There was a Gallic army at Britcon with a lowland and a highland allied contingent.

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Re: can bring two allied nations that are the same?

Post by marioslaz » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:31 pm

nigelemsen wrote:Can you bring more than one allied command of the same allied nationality. Egm could dominate roman bring 2 lots of alan allies? E.g upto 2s command cv. O-12 cav per allied cv,
Allies lists show maximum troops allowed for each allied nation, and this includes also Commander (1 for each allied nation for what I could verify). In FOG there aren't commands, so you cannot make 2 allied commands since they don't exist at all. In FOG you can deploy allied troops away from their Commander. They simply will not have bonus.
Mario Vitale

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Post by KillingZoe » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Further more, have a look at the papal italian list (oath of fealty).
There it states explicitly that two contigents of Italian allies can be fielded - hence it will be only one contigent where such a statement is missing.

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Post by OldenTired » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:44 pm

KillingZoe wrote:Further more, have a look at the papal italian list (oath of fealty).
There it states explicitly that two contigents of Italian allies can be fielded - hence it will be only one contigent where such a statement is missing.
yes. one ally per list, unless the origin list states something like the Later Carthaginian list, which has "Bruttian allies", and "Lucanian Allies" that are drawn off the same allied list. One allied general must be Bruttian, one Lucanian.

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Post by Caledonian » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:12 pm

I disagree. Where does it say, in general, that only one allied contingent of each nationality can be fielded? It states that an allied commander's contingent must conform to the maxima and minima in the allied list. Does this not refer to each allied commanders contingent. I can't find anything that says that only one allied contingent of each nationality can be used.
What is there to stop, for example, a Classical Greek army or a Classical Indian army having a C-in-C and three allied contingents, all of the same origin.

John

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Post by Blathergut » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:34 pm

Each list states the point. Example: LateR Romans..."only one allied contingent can be used". Ancient Spanish can have 2 allied Spanish commanders...but that's it. Gallic could have 2 allied Gallic commanders plus an ancient Spanish allied commander. One would assume (hopefully correctly :D ) that if nothing is stated, you have free reign.

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Post by ravenflight » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:36 pm

philqw78 wrote:The ally list gives the maximum allies allowed. I don't think there are any with 2 generals.
There are several, but within the nation itself (ie - Classical Greeks where you can have 1 C-in-C and 3 allies all drawn from the same list I believe)

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Post by gozerius » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:14 am

Since the "Allies" section lists all possible non-list allies, unless the list specifies more than one contingient of a specific nationality, only one is permitted.

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Post by OldenTired » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:43 am

Caledonian wrote:I disagree. Where does it say, in general, that only one allied contingent of each nationality can be fielded? It states that an allied commander's contingent must conform to the maxima and minima in the allied list. Does this not refer to each allied commanders contingent. I can't find anything that says that only one allied contingent of each nationality can be used.
What is there to stop, for example, a Classical Greek army or a Classical Indian army having a C-in-C and three allied contingents, all of the same origin.

John
you might find that it is not categorically stated that you can only have one ally from a list because that has been the convention. the authors likely assumed that players would know you can only take one General and one contingent per listed ally.

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Post by TERRYFROMSPOKANE » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:36 pm

I don't think the fact that an allied troop list includes only one allied commander means that list can only be used once. Page 23 of SWIFTER THAN EAGLES says, "Only one Ugaritic allied commander can be used." If only one allied commander from any allied list could be used, there would be no need for this special prohibition for the Ugaritic list.

Page 49 deals with Phoenician Allies and says, "Commanders should be depicited in chariots." The plural indicates this list can be used more than once. Of course, this text might be a typo and have been copied complete from a main army list by mistake.

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Post by philqw78 » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:31 pm

TERRYFROMSPOKANE wrote:I don't think the fact that an allied troop list includes only one allied commander means that list can only be used once. Page 23 of SWIFTER THAN EAGLES says, "Only one Ugaritic allied commander can be used." If only one allied commander from any allied list could be used, there would be no need for this special prohibition for the Ugaritic list.

Page 49 deals with Phoenician Allies and says, "Commanders should be depicited in chariots." The plural indicates this list can be used more than once. Of course, this text might be a typo and have been copied complete from a main army list by mistake.

Terry G.
But this is an internal Syro Canaanite ally. Not an external ally.

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Post by TERRYFROMSPOKANE » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:52 pm

But the logic is still germane to the "Each allied list has 1 allied commander, so the list can only be used once." theory presented earlier in this thread. Also the Phonecian ally list is not an internal ally is it?

Terry G.

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Post by Caledonian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:22 pm

Each allied list has 1 allied commander and up to X number of bases of each type.

Each allied contingent can have one allied commander and up to X number of bases of each type which are then subtracted from the total number of bases of that type allowed in the main list.

Unless specified in a particular list, there is nothing to stop you having up to 3 allied contingents, each with 1 allied commander and up to X number of bases of each type allowed in the allies list, so long as the total number of bases of each typer in all the allied and main contingents does not exceed the total number allowed in the main army list.

For example. The main list allows 24 stands of Superior bow armed light horse. The allies list allows up to 6 bases. The C-in-C can have six bases and each of three allied contingents can have up to 6 each, or, the C-in-C could have 12 bases leaving 12 to be shared between the allies.

John

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Post by deadtorius » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:32 am

Each allied contingent can have one allied commander and up to X number of bases of each type which are then subtracted from the total number of bases of that type allowed in the main list.
I would guess you are referring to an allied force listed in the main list, not the seperate ally list which seems to be where the confusion seems to arise. As has been pointed out before if the ally is listed in the main list then you can choose from that list if it is from a seperate ally list for example, Selucids can have Parthian (rebel) allies. the Parthian ally list is seperate from the Selucid list so 1 Parthian general and 1 shot at the Parthian allies list which has the minimum and maximum listed and limits the total size of the allied force to whatever the maximums in the allies list is.
Hope that was clear enough.

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Post by OldenTired » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:35 am

deadtorius wrote: the Parthian ally list is seperate from the Selucid list so 1 Parthian general and 1 shot at the Parthian allies list which has the minimum and maximum listed and limits the total size of the allied force to whatever the maximums in the allies list is.
Hope that was clear enough.
that is exactly my understanding.

ONE allied general per allies list. and the min/max as listed.

none of this multiple versions of the same list bull-pucky-exploit

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Post by Caledonian » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:03 am

I see no reason why you cannot have two or three allied contingents from the same allied list so long as each of them conforms to the maxima and minima in the allied list. I think we will just have to disagree on this until an author can come up with a definitive answer.

I can confirm for what it's worth , however, that my son used a Gallic army at Britcon with two Gallic allied contingents. I discussed this with the list checker for that competition and he agreed that this was ok

John

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