Oddity in Impact

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Jaruuk
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Oddity in Impact

Post by Jaruuk » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:42 pm

During my impact phase I had a 2 man unit of Scythe Chariots (H1) charge into a 4 man disrupted legionnaires unit (L1) and Cataphracts (C1) charge a different fragmented group of legionnaires (L2). L1 had a 2 man Triarii unit (T1) in support. L2 was frontally engaged with a pike (P1) unit on a 1 base frontage.
------T1
-----L1L1
L2L2
P1---H1H1
--C1

H1/L1 impact is resolved first (notice that the chariots are not perfectly lined up leaving the front corner of L1 closest to the Cats uncovered). The Chariots won and fragmented the disrupted legion. L2 passes its check for being charged while fragmented, loses impact and routs taking it by L1. The Cats (which were in column) follow and will now impact L1.
------L2L2
------------T1
----------L1L1
---------C1H1H1
L3
P1P1

What follows is the way we played it out and where my question comes in. Checking the rules it looks to me that L1 now makes a check for being charged fragmented since we are still in the same impact phase. L1 passes and gets hit by the Cats who win the impact. L1 now routs. H1 follows into T1 and C1 follows the routers past T1 and catches L2 trying to get away. P1 was still in frontal contact with another legion. This is how it ended up roughly:
------------L1
------L2L2
--------C1---T1
--------------H1H1
L3
P1P1

The question is whether or not we did that correctly. The main objection of my opponent was that L1 had already been hit and fought H1 in this impact phase, therefore were not eligible to have to fight again in this impact.
Thanks for looking

marioslaz
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Post by marioslaz » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:10 pm

You did it wrong. When pursuers hit fresh enemy they don't fight since next impact phase (but fragmented enemy make CT immediately). No troops can fight twice in impact phase. See p. 108.
Mario Vitale

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Post by Strategos69 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:48 pm

marioslaz wrote:You did it wrong. When pursuers hit fresh enemy they don't fight since next impact phase (but fragmented enemy make CT immediately). No troops can fight twice in impact phase. See p. 108.
Except that if contact occured in the impact phase, it is adjudicated in the same impact phase. In brackets in the original quote, in the same page 108.

So, as far as I understand it, it is possible to fight more than once in the same impact phase. If you are lucky enough, you can win the whole battle with one battlegroup in one phase. :shock:

kevinj
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Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:52 pm

You did it wrong. When pursuers hit fresh enemy they don't fight since next impact phase (but fragmented enemy make CT immediately). No troops can fight twice in impact phase. See p. 108.
P108 specifies the exception that if the pursuers contact fresh enemy in the Impact Phase (as I believe is the case here) then the Impact combat is fought in the same phase. I've not seen the sutuation where a BG contacted in this way has fought previously but I can't see why it should be different.

Jaruuk
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Post by Jaruuk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:14 pm

kevinj wrote:
You did it wrong. When pursuers hit fresh enemy they don't fight since next impact phase (but fragmented enemy make CT immediately). No troops can fight twice in impact phase. See p. 108.
P108 specifies the exception that if the pursuers contact fresh enemy in the Impact Phase (as I believe is the case here) then the Impact combat is fought in the same phase. I've not seen the sutuation where a BG contacted in this way has fought previously but I can't see why it should be different.
This is the crux of the problem. Can L1 be forced to fight again in this impact phase. They already fought the Scythed Chariots in this impact and then the Cats hit them in the same impact. The rules say to adjudicate the combat in this impact phase but can they fight?

I will look at pg 108 and see what is written there. I think 108 refers to an impact through pursuit that happens in the melee phase or JAP, but it does qualify in the parenthesis that if you are in the impact phase it is resolved now.

kevinj
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Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:22 pm

I don't see why they shouldn't fight in the same Impact phase, despite having fought before. The cataphracts have also fought before.

Jaruuk
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Post by Jaruuk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:31 pm

kevinj wrote:I don't see why they shouldn't fight in the same Impact phase, despite having fought before. The cataphracts have also fought before.
I agreed with you. Another problem then arises....

Lets say L1 did 0 hits against the Chariots and the Chariots did 2. The Cats hit and do 0 and L1 does 2. Do you now go back and determine that L1 did NOT lose at all?

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Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 pm

I think you'd need to treat it as a separate fight, otherwise you would have to count the hits inflicted on/by L2 to determine whether the Cats had won or lost.

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Post by Primarch » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:54 pm

I think the big thing that I questioned, is the Chariots getting to pursue, and then fight another Impact phase all because the Cats hit their opponents after that combat was settled.


Basically the Chariots hit the HF, win combat, we move down the line, resolving all the rest of the impacts. Then we start back at the Chariot fight, and I roll Cohesion test, which I think I failed and Disrupt.

Now, at this point, that fight is COMPLETELY over, meaning, there are no more rolls to make, everything is settled. Then the Cats impact resolution breaks the MF to their front. So the Cats pursue and barely clip my HF that had already fought the Chariots in that phase. Now, he has hit me with a total of 8 impact dice, and 3 stands, where my BG only has 2 stands of width to be fighting. Then he wins that combat, and the MF already in base with the Chariots, also break. At this point, the Chariots and Cats pursue into a 3rd BG of Offensive Spear, and fight yet ANOTHER round of Impact.

I can see the Cats doing so, but to have the Chariots sit idly by, wait for a combat to pass after they have fought, and then in a distinctly different fight, gain the bonus of an additional impact phase.


I am not sure why this rule even exists the way it does, it would be much cleaner to have the additional impact fought in the next impact phase.


Clay

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Post by Strategos69 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:45 am

Primarch wrote:I think the big thing that I questioned, is the Chariots getting to pursue, and then fight another Impact phase all because the Cats hit their opponents after that combat was settled.
The foot in front of them broke, and so they can pursue. I would not see why the chariots would sit down while their ennemies are routing.
Primarch wrote: Basically the Chariots hit the HF, win combat, we move down the line, resolving all the rest of the impacts. Then we start back at the Chariot fight, and I roll Cohesion test, which I think I failed and Disrupt.
...
I can see the Cats doing so, but to have the Chariots sit idly by, wait for a combat to pass after they have fought, and then in a distinctly different fight, gain the bonus of an additional impact phase.
You should imagine the action as something continuous, the chariots being stopped at their front and then suddenly the enemy breaks. Game turns are not a fixed spam of time, so it can be possible. Double moves are...
Primarch wrote: I am not sure why this rule even exists the way it does, it would be much cleaner to have the additional impact fought in the next impact phase.
The point is that in page 168, where you have a very detailed description of the game phases, there is no point where you can do this combat, which can explain why it was said it was played wrongly. I think the rule is done this way to avoid getting away the initiative from the player by offering easy targets, then pursue and finally being charged from everywhere for getting in a hard position. I am not claiming any unhistorical accuracy for any of those, but I guess that if you don't let the combat to be resolved inmediately, many tricky strategies might be possible.

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