flank charge existing melee

This forum is for any questions about the rules. Post here is you need feedback from the design team.

Moderators: philqw78, terrys, hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators

Post Reply
jules44
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:33 pm

flank charge existing melee

Post by jules44 »

Can a unit of cav flank charge into a foot unit which is already in combat to its front ?
follow up, can any unit already in combat be charged by further opponents?


confused.com
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Post by kevinj »

Yes and Yes. The bases contacting/contacted as a result of the new charge fight in the impact phase and then all the bases in contact fight in the melee phase.
jules44
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:33 pm

Post by jules44 »

Thanks for quick reply.
Helps a lot ( My son is in for a surprise )
ethan
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1284
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:40 pm

Post by ethan »

Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.

The rules are reasonably clear here, much better than post from memory.
peterrjohnston
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 1506
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:51 am

Post by peterrjohnston »

ethan wrote:Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.
There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."

Not sure what happens if you charge someone when pursuing though...
Ghaznavid
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:44 am
Location: Germany

Post by Ghaznavid »

Interesting question, in the absence of any other notes on the subject I would point to the part that says that such a contact during pursuit is considered a charge. Accordingly it appears logical to apply the rules for charging even in those cases. It certainly keeps things simple.
Karsten


~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~
gozerius
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:32 am

Post by gozerius »

I might suggest applying the clause referring to "contacting enemy other than a legal contact". It references corner to corner and side edge to side edge contacts, but I could see it applied to contacts not qualifying as a flank charge. In those cases the contact does not lead to an impact phase combat. Now, since conforming only applies to BGs that are engaged in close combat, a BG that contacts such enemy not qualifying for an impact combat does not conform, and is not eligible for melee combat. Such contacts would of course only be possible when the BG so contacted was unmasked by the original charge targets evading or fleeing.
Thracians
Classical Indians
Medieval
-Germans (many flavors), Danes, Low Countries
Burgundians
In progress - Later Hungarians, Grand Moravians
peterrjohnston
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 1506
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:51 am

Post by peterrjohnston »

It happened when I was umpiring in Roma last year; IIRC I ruled it wasn't a legal charge, even if essentially involuntary (you need to pass a CMT not to contact). I forgot to ask about it after, and Ethan's reply reminded me.

It's quite clear you can't contact, but I don't think it goes far enough. What do pursuing or troops charging without orders do? Do they just stop when they reach the charged BG, or, in the case of charging without orders, not even have to charge? There's nothing they can legally charge in this case, but it's not listed as a reason not to do the test to prevent charging!

Perhaps involuntary contacts like this should be just treated as a frontal charge as per p57, then the charging BG moves to a overlap in movement.


(apologies jules44, we've hijacked your post, don't worry about the discussion, it's a relatively rare situation in a game :))
kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Post by kevinj »

Apologies for continurd hijacking...

I think Troops Charging without Orders is slightly different. if your BGs only possible contact would not be legal, then I don't think they should be compelled to test or charge.

With pursuers, or chargers whose target has evaded, the vast majority of these cases are likely to arise where the routers/evaders are passing by a friendly BG, in which case you would be able to wheel to follow them and avoid the non-legal contact.
gozerius
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:32 am

Post by gozerius »

peterrjohnston wrote:
ethan wrote:Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.
There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."
That applies to most troops, but I don't think that those troops which only count their front rank in melee (elephants, battlewagons, artillery, chariots and knights) can claim immunity for their second rank.
Thracians
Classical Indians
Medieval
-Germans (many flavors), Danes, Low Countries
Burgundians
In progress - Later Hungarians, Grand Moravians
Ghaznavid
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:44 am
Location: Germany

Post by Ghaznavid »

gozerius wrote:
peterrjohnston wrote:There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."
That applies to most troops, but I don't think that those troops which only count their front rank in melee (elephants, battlewagons, artillery, chariots and knights) can claim immunity for their second rank.
While that seems logical the way the FAQ is phrased currently leaves no doubt that even the 2nd line of such troops is immune to non-flank charges while the 3rd and 4th rank of pikes (who are fighting) is not. Basically its a simplification like many others in FoG, not strictly bound by purely logical considerations.
Karsten


~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”