Difficult forward Advances

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SAPPER
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Difficult forward Advances

Post by SAPPER » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Came up with this in one of my first games;

On the movement charts skirmishers can turn 180 degrees and perform a simple advance before or after the turn. Moving less than a full move is classified as a difficult move. So can a skirmish unit turn 180 degrees and move less than a full move? If the answer is no then what happens when, after turning 180 degrees, there is an enemy unit to the front less than a full move away? Is the skirmish unit restricted to just turning 180 degrees because it cannot perform a simple advance?

babyshark
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Re: Difficult forward Advances

Post by babyshark » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:57 pm

SAPPER wrote:Came up with this in one of my first games;

On the movement charts skirmishers can turn 180 degrees and perform a simple advance before or after the turn. Moving less than a full move is classified as a difficult move. So can a skirmish unit turn 180 degrees and move less than a full move? If the answer is no then what happens when, after turning 180 degrees, there is an enemy unit to the front less than a full move away? Is the skirmish unit restricted to just turning 180 degrees because it cannot perform a simple advance?
Difficult forward moves are a regular source of confusion. In short, a difficult forward move is one that occurs 1) within 6MU of enemy, 2) involves either a wheel or a move less than the BG's full move distance, 3) is made by a BG that is classified as "other undrilled" (or a battleline containing such a BG), 4) with no general in line of command attached to the BG (or battleline). The skirmishers your question are not "other undrilled" and so do not worry themselves about difficult forward moves.

I believe that there is something in the FAQ on this subject as well.

Hope that helps,

Marc

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Re: Difficult forward Advances

Post by Jilu » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:12 pm

SAPPER wrote:Came up with this in one of my first games;

On the movement charts skirmishers can turn 180 degrees and perform a simple advance before or after the turn. Moving less than a full move is classified as a difficult move. So can a skirmish unit turn 180 degrees and move less than a full move? If the answer is no then what happens when, after turning 180 degrees, there is an enemy unit to the front less than a full move away? Is the skirmish unit restricted to just turning 180 degrees because it cannot perform a simple advance?
The difficult foward move section is probably THE one paragraph that is in Bakerish

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:54 pm

hopefully in the FOG R they will have figured out a better way of explaining the difficult moves so it is less confusing, but can be applied to FOG as it will work the same way.

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Post by timmy1 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:06 pm

Key word there is 'hopefully'

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:20 am

Prays to the great gods of rule books for a clear and easy explanation, of what is really a simple thing

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Re: Difficult forward Advances

Post by SAPPER » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:44 am

babyshark wrote:
SAPPER wrote:Came up with this in one of my first games;

On the movement charts skirmishers can turn 180 degrees and perform a simple advance before or after the turn. Moving less than a full move is classified as a difficult move. So can a skirmish unit turn 180 degrees and move less than a full move? If the answer is no then what happens when, after turning 180 degrees, there is an enemy unit to the front less than a full move away? Is the skirmish unit restricted to just turning 180 degrees because it cannot perform a simple advance?
Difficult forward moves are a regular source of confusion. In short, a difficult forward move is one that occurs 1) within 6MU of enemy, 2) involves either a wheel or a move less than the BG's full move distance, 3) is made by a BG that is classified as "other undrilled" (or a battleline containing such a BG), 4) with no general in line of command attached to the BG (or battleline). The skirmishers your question are not "other undrilled" and so do not worry themselves about difficult forward moves.

I believe that there is something in the FAQ on this subject as well.

Hope that helps,

Marc
Thanks Marc,

All of the above is clear in the rulebook except #3. Although it makes since that skirmishers should not be subject to the difficult advance restrictions I need a reference to convince the guys I game wit. I have read FAQ ver 5.01 and I could not find it.

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:15 pm

Back of the rules movement and cohesion tests, first of the tables. Listed under skirmishers the only move counted as difficult is if they turn 180 and move back 3 or less MU's then turn back to their original facing again. This allows them to move back and shoot at an enemy if they are still in range. I do this with my horse archers all the time, pending failing the die roll. All other moves are simple so they can do it all.

Hopefully that will prove your point about turning 180 and moving away without turning back again

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Post by SirGarnet » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:14 am

Argh, not again!

The easy and foolproof way to understand and implement DIFFICULT FORWARD MOVES (p41) is as follows:

1. Turn to the Simple and Complex Moves table (on p 42 this says "Difficult Forward Moves" while on the QRS it helpfully lists what they are).
2. Find Advances under "Type of move"
3. Find the box marked "Complex" at the end of the first line under Advances.
4. Get a black or red pen and write "Diff Move" in that box.

Difficult move rules mean that you can't do a move in that box without passing a CMT. That's it.

For a new player, perform steps 1-4 on his CM table and QRS before he reads the rules.

P.S. 1: Complex is not the same as Difficult.
2. For theoreticians, the theory behind this approach is that Difficult Forward Moves by other troops are Simple and don't need a CMT so who cares?

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Post by BlackPrince » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:19 am

Not again!

Must show there is a problem way this section is worded. May it would be easier to on page 41 under Difficult Forward Moves to write applies to undrilled other troop types only.
Keith

It was better to leave disputing about the faith to the theologians and just run argumentative non-believers through with the sword (Louis IX).

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:41 pm

Perhaps in FOG R it will be reworded and easier to understand. Not a difficult rule but the wording makes it confusing for everyone.

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Post by hammy » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:42 pm

deadtorius wrote:Perhaps in FOG R it will be reworded and easier to understand. Not a difficult rule but the wording makes it confusing for everyone.
Hard as it may be to believe this rule was discussed in depth as to how to write it and also keep the maneuver table to a manageable size.

The issue is that while simple and complex are no problem for players to cope with, difficult seems to add confusion as people automatically think that all difficult moves are complex when in practice the vast majority of difficult moves are simple.

Essentially any advance including no more than one wheel is a simple move for all troops EXCEPT for Other undrilled troops who are not accompanied by a commander and who move within 6MU of the enemy.

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Post by shadowdragon » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:46 pm

hammy wrote:
deadtorius wrote:Perhaps in FOG R it will be reworded and easier to understand. Not a difficult rule but the wording makes it confusing for everyone.
Hard as it may be to believe this rule was discussed in depth as to how to write it and also keep the maneuver table to a manageable size.

The issue is that while simple and complex are no problem for players to cope with, difficult seems to add confusion as people automatically think that all difficult moves are complex when in practice the vast majority of difficult moves are simple.

Essentially any advance including no more than one wheel is a simple move for all troops EXCEPT for Other undrilled troops who are not accompanied by a commander and who move within 6MU of the enemy.
Funnily enough (as if it weren’t already funny that I was recently “seen” arguing Dave R’s obtuse case on conforming), it wasn’t distinguishing the term “Difficult Forward Move” from a Complex Move. The “Complex & Complex Move” table shows the term, “Difficult Forward Move”, in italics, which to me would indicate that it isn’t just a synonym for “complex move” but a specially defined term.

What confused me until I searched the “rules” forum here was that I thought that an “other undrilled” BG within 6 MU of the enemy and without a general that had failed a CMT then had to move straight forward a full move. No doubt this was a hold over in my thinking from DBM. The part that puzzled me was what happens when the BG is within charge range of the enemy….where do they stop? Finally I found the answer here, which was that such a BG that fails its CMT can also choose to “Not Move”; and that “Not Moving” wasn’t the same thing as a move “less than the troops’ full available move distance”.

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Post by SirGarnet » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:25 am

Maybe in FOG boot camp someone needs to go round and write "Difficult Move" in the appropriate QRS Complex Move table box to short circuit unnecessary wheel-spinning.

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Post by grahambriggs » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:44 am

"difficult seems to add confusion as people automatically think that all difficult moves are complex when in practice the vast majority of difficult moves are simple"

I can't think why people get confused when it's explained that difficult = simple :?

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Post by Jilu » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:38 pm

Now if for the Natives it is difficult to comprehend imagine how it is for us foreigners

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