What happens to commanders when . . .

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jizbrand
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What happens to commanders when . . .

Post by jizbrand » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:40 pm

Situation 1: Commander is attached to a battlegroup (was trying to bolster the battlegroup in the previous joint action phase). Battlegroup is destroyed in close combat. What happens to the commander?

Situation 2: Commander is attached to a battlegroup (was trying to bolster in previous joint action phase). Battlegroup autobreaks in close combat and is removed from play. What happens to the commander?

Does it make any difference in either of those two situations if the commander was fighting in the front rank?

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Re: What happens to commanders when . . .

Post by hazelbark » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:29 pm

jizbrand wrote:Situation 1: Commander is attached to a battlegroup (was trying to bolster the battlegroup in the previous joint action phase). Battlegroup is destroyed in close combat. What happens to the commander?

Situation 2: Commander is attached to a battlegroup (was trying to bolster in previous joint action phase). Battlegroup autobreaks in close combat and is removed from play. What happens to the commander?

Does it make any difference in either of those two situations if the commander was fighting in the front rank?
I lost my posting. so let me try again.

A commander not fighting in a front rank is removed only two ways. 1) By being unable to immediately move to a friendly unit when moved throughor in shooting range while the the enmy is moving and 2) being with a broken BG that is caught by pursuers and they roll 10+

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Post by jizbrand » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:12 pm

Thanks for the information. Just to make sure I understand: if the battlegroup is eliminated, the commander remains intact, unless he happened to be fighting in the front rank, in which case there's a chance he'll be killed.

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Post by hazelbark » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:18 pm

yes.

Also it looks like you are misreading the autobreak. Autobreak means you rout and thus may be pursued. The unit does not actually disappear from the table until the portion (IIRC the end) of the JAP phase. See the full sequence of play at back.

So in sit 2 you rout. If caught could die to 10+ roll. Then first in JAP the commander can move away. Then unit routs again. Then comes off.

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Post by jizbrand » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:07 am

Splendid! Thanks so much.

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Post by Malty666 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:43 pm

Hang on - don't you also lose commanders if a missile armed unit moves into range of the commander and he is not attached to a BG?

And if he is contacted by enemy troops and no friendly BG is within a move distance (7 MUs)?

Or am I mixing things up? :oops:

And what if the commander was with a battelgroup - but was not fighting in front rank and that battlegroup routs? Can he move away or is he carried along?
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Post by grahambriggs » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:01 pm

Yes, but they weren't the situations the OP was asking about.

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Post by Malty666 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:05 pm

OK np - just had a moment of confused panic there :)
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Post by hammy » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:46 pm

Malty666 wrote:Hang on - don't you also lose commanders if a missile armed unit moves into range of the commander and he is not attached to a BG?

And if he is contacted by enemy troops and no friendly BG is within a move distance (7 MUs)?

Or am I mixing things up? :oops:

And what if the commander was with a battelgroup - but was not fighting in front rank and that battlegroup routs? Can he move away or is he carried along?
If someone gets in missile range and he can't make it to a BG then he gets shot, otherwise he is OK but must join a BG.

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Post by hazelbark » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:36 pm

Malty666 wrote:Hang on - don't you also lose commanders if a missile armed unit moves into range of the commander and he is not attached to a BG?
Others answered but the other thing is the commander is only lost in a certain point I think it is enemy move phase. Not in other phases. See specific rule wording IIRC.

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Post by deadtorius » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:13 am

A commander with a BG that breaks and it does not matter if he was in the front rank or the back of the unit must make an initial rout move with the broken unit. During the JAP he can move as he wishes, leaving the routers if he wants.
A unit that is broken and has enemy pursuers in contact with that unit will remove one base per pursuing battle group and the general may be killed with a die roll of 10+, one roll only.
Auto break units will still rout at the beginning of the JAP, so the general can move off if he wants, at the end of the JAP as the last part of the phase auto broke units are removed from the table. If the general was with that auto broken unit he moves to any friends within 7MU. If there are no friends within 7MU he is on his own. If an enemy unit moves over him or he gets within range of an enemy that can shoot and he is still alone he dies.
Makes no difference if he is in the front rank or not.

A general in the front rank of a unit in impact or melee may be killed after the combat has been resolved. IF you do at least 2 hits to the enemy you get to roll for killing his general. IF the general chooses to stay in the rear rank for rally only purposes then you can't kill him from combat.

Hope that clears it up for you :) page 99 covers generals in combat

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Post by rpayne » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:33 am

Actually, one quick addition to that.

If a commander was fighting in the front rank, the unit routs, and the pursuers remain in contact, he cannot leave the unit. The unit is still technically in close combat even though no melee is occuring.

Or at least that's the way we play it in California, I'm trying to find it in the book now and it's clear the pursuing commander cannot leave his unit but unclear if the routing commander can or can't.

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:34 am

Routing coammander can leave, pursuing can't. But someone had best post the page reference for you as I am at work.
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Post by graym » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:46 am

Some points I've seen done poorly. Page 99 at the bottom says a leader in the front rank cant leave while in any type of contact, inc pursuit,

page 101 at the top says a leader routs with a unit but cant leave until the next JAP phase, and I'm assuming this is a non front rank leader although it's not greatly explained.

Of note he cant use his bonuses for other troops in that JAP phase.

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Post by hammy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:37 am

graym wrote:Some points I've seen done poorly. Page 99 at the bottom says a leader in the front rank cant leave while in any type of contact, inc pursuit,

page 101 at the top says a leader routs with a unit but cant leave until the next JAP phase, and I'm assuming this is a non front rank leader although it's not greatly explained.

Of note he cant use his bonuses for other troops in that JAP phase.
A BG can be either unengaged, in close combat, pursuing or routing

A commander cannot leave a BG that is in close combat or pursuing.

A commander can leave an unengaged or routing BG.

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:51 am

The previous poster gives a page Hammy. Where is your reference. As it stands if a BG is in any type of contact P99, includes routing to me.
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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:53 am

philqw78 wrote:The previous poster gives a page Hammy. Where is your reference. As it stands if a BG is in any type of contact P99, includes routing to me.
I don't have the rule book to hand. What does it say on P.99?

From my final draft the pertinent section (no idea what rules page it is on) would seem to be:

"Once declared as fighting in the front rank, the commander cannot leave the front rank of that battle group until it is no longer in close combat and no longer in contact with enemy routers."

This does not prevent a commander in a routing BG from leaving after the initial rout. (Being pedantic: provided, of course, that the routing BG is not itself in contact with enemy routers).

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Post by hazelbark » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:20 pm

rpayne wrote: Or at least that's the way we play it in California, I'm trying to find it in the book now and it's clear the pursuing commander cannot leave his unit but unclear if the routing commander can or can't.
Like so many things...its clear in the rules. A commander with the routing unit can move in the JAP phase.

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Post by deadtorius » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:47 pm

I thought the commander had to stay with the routers for the initial rout move then he could split off in the JAP although I am not sure where in the rules that was listed. Page 99 was for commanders in combat, routing would seem to be a different situation than leaving routers.
Page 109 says under movement commanders of both sides can move once in the joint action phase. The cannot move a battle group with them. then it goes onto bolstering and rallying.

Page 99 does not say anything about commanders staying with routers, it says if they were in the front rank they have to stay in the front rank until they are no longer in combat and no longer in contact with routers.

A commander is free to leave a broken unit during the JAP whether there are pursuers in contact or not. Pursuing generals in the front rank that are in contact with routers can't run off on their own. If he was in the rear ranks he is free to do as he pleases.

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Post by BlackPrince » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:36 am

deadtorius wrote:I thought the commander had to stay with the routers for the initial rout move then he could split off in the JAP although I am not sure where in the rules that was listed.
That is how I understand it to work the general gets carried out with the unit when it breaks but then move in the JAP. Otherwise there would be almost no risk to the General in the pursuit. When a BG breaks the general would leave the unit and then next move join it again to bolster it once it is no longer in contact with the enemy.
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