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Forthcoming changes before Usk tournament

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:11 pm
by rbodleyscott
Now that you should all have 4.04, including the new points system, here are some additional forthcoming changes which will (probably/possibly) go in before the version for the tournament at Usk is finalised, and which might affect your army choice.

1) Extra impact phase dice for rear rank "shooters" will dice as if shooting. There will be an additional shooting modifier of -1 for shooting at charging enemy.

e.g. Persian sparabara 3 bases wide, 2 deep, facing an enemy charge.

Sparabara graded as Protected, MF, front rank bow, light spear, -, rear rank bow,-,-

In impact phase (if receiving enemy charge):

6 dice with + for light spear netted out against enemy POA.
3 dice shooting at the enemy using the normal modifier for the enemy armour, and -1 for shooting at chargers.
(Thus need 3s to hit [2-deep]unprotected cavalry, 4s to hit protected cavalry or unprotected foot, 5s to hit Protected foot or Armoured cavalry, 6s to hit Armoured foot or heavily armoured mounted or foot.)

2) Cataphracts fight with 1 dice in melee. (Thus need to be 2 deep).

Points costs reduced to: Elite 17, superior 15, average 13. Cost for drilled +2.

3) Extra cost for drilled light chariots reduced to 1.

4) Poor armoured cavalry base cost 7.

5) Light spear foot impact phase POA: + unless charging shock mounted

6) HW impact phase POA: + against any foot

7) HW cost possibly to be reduced to 2

8 ) Possible additional cohesion test modifier: -1 if testing for losing impact phase close combat vs impact foot or lancers. If so, extra cost for lancers goes up to 2.

9) Light Foot not disordered by difficult terrain.

10) Stationary Spearmen/Pikemen impact phase + will only count if 2/3 ranks deep (respectively). To qualify, all these ranks must have the Spearmen POA listed in the troop description. Thus a Nikephorian front rank spear, rear rank bow BG does not get the +. (But, if steady, the spears do prevent enemy lancers [in impact] and swords [in melee] from getting a POA).

No doubt there will be more, but these are the most important ones so far for army choice. They are not all guaranteed to be adopted, but seem likely to be adopted at the time of writing this.

As previously stated, you need not submit your army lists until 1 week before the tournament. Hopwfully we should have sent you a revised version a week or so before that.

Re: Forthcoming changes before Usk tournament

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:42 am
by nikgaukroger
rbodleyscott wrote:
2) Cataphracts fight with 1 dice in melee. (Thus need to be 2 deep).
Does this mean that Cataphracts as a separate troop type can disappear? They are now Heavily Armoured Cavalry and the slower movement rate is probably spurious IMO ...

Re: Forthcoming changes before Usk tournament

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:39 am
by hammy
nikgaukroger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
2) Cataphracts fight with 1 dice in melee. (Thus need to be 2 deep).
Does this mean that Cataphracts as a separate troop type can disappear? They are now Heavily Armoured Cavalry and the slower movement rate is probably spurious IMO ...
Something I had been wondering too.

The only possible issue would be that non lance armed single ranked heavily armoured cavalry could eveade while cataphracts cannot.

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:37 am
by nikgaukroger
Currently not a lot of non lance armed catafracts - 2 elements IIRC. Mind you I have suggested that some Sasanids might qualify but then you'd just except Heavily Armoured from being able to evade I guess.

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:44 pm
by donm
Heavy armoured cavalry would solve one of the basing problems for 25mm. It is near impossible to get 4 cavalry figures on a 60mm base.

In the games I have played, it does look strange that they are in one rank and all other mounted in two. I do not think they currently cost enough given their ability to fight in one rank.

Don M

Re: Forthcoming changes before Usk tournament

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:52 am
by rbodleyscott
nikgaukroger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
2) Cataphracts fight with 1 dice in melee. (Thus need to be 2 deep).
Does this mean that Cataphracts as a separate troop type can disappear? They are now Heavily Armoured Cavalry and the slower movement rate is probably spurious IMO ...
We considered this, but felt we wanted to keep them separate

1) Because we don't think it is unreasonable that they should move slower than other cavalry
2) They should be less manoeuvrable - see historical accounts of Battle of Magnesia re their inability to avoid their own routing scythed chariots because of their heavy armour
3) For flavour

No doubt this point could be argued either way, but (3) clinches it, to my mind.

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:53 am
by rbodleyscott
donm wrote:In the games I have played, it does look strange that they are in one rank and all other mounted in two. I do not think they currently cost enough given their ability to fight in one rank.
Even with the new points chart Don? Knights too?

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:28 am
by donm
I have not used any knights in my first games, but I will try some out over the Christmas period. In the games I have played cataphrates appear to me to be the best non-knights mounted. They have come out on top of Steves companions everytime, even when Steve had two BG's against one. The only risk is element losses, but then it is better for a unit to disappear than have the enemy pursue behide your lines. It also appears that you do not take cohesion tests for destroyed BG's.

Don

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:03 pm
by list_lurker
It also appears that you do not take cohesion tests for destroyed BG's.
Don is right - it only states mark units fo COH for test following a break p 35, 9th diamond - 1st bullet. - a bug surely?!

it doesn't define 'break' in the glossary - maybe you could include units destroyed before requiring COH tests

Simon

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:57 am
by donm
I think my last message may have got lost in the merryment.
It also appears that you do not take cohesion tests for destroyed BG's.
Should there be a COH for seeing a BG destroyed? It could be considered much worse that a rout.

Has it been decided what is to happen to cataphrates? As this will effect my choice of army for Usk.

Don M

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:17 am
by hammy
donm wrote:
It also appears that you do not take cohesion tests for destroyed BG's.
Should there be a COH for seeing a BG destroyed? It could be considered much worse that a rout.

Don M
Interesting, I have always played that you do take a test for a destroyed BG... I will check my rules and see if I was wrong.

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:11 pm
by shall
I think we need to clarify this in the words. I too have always tested for a unit destoryed. Observed vaporisation is surely no better than seeing them run!

Si

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:00 am
by rbodleyscott
rbodleyscott wrote:Main changes since last Beta

The layout of the whole rules has been reorganized. Main rules changes in the forthcoming beta as below:

1) Turning 180 degrees and advancing with skirmishers is a SIMPLE move.

2) LF not disordered in Difficult terrain ??“ but I have left in the reduced move distance.

3) Generals move as if light horse.

4) A battle group entirely of Light Foot cannot charge or intercept unbroken non-skirmishers in open terrain (even in the flank or rear).

5) Only pursue if all opponents break (other than those only fought as an overlap).

6) Break-off by mounted ??“ only if more than half their frontal close combat opponents are steady foot.

7) Impact phase ???support shooting??? ??“ using shooting POAs. Not that this is not a simple matter of doing it exactly as per shooting, because the number of dice is different (for crossbowmen if we want them to have 1 dice per base).

8 ) -1 shooting at chargers

9) Cataphracts 1 dice in melee & points cost reduced accordingly.

10) Impact POA: Foot with light spear + unless charging shock mounted

11) -1 cohesion test modifier when losing impact phase combat vs impact foot or lancers. Note that this in the ???any one of??? section, so MF losing impact phase vs HF impact foot in the open will only get one -1.

12) Cost of lancers raised to +2 to adjust to this benefit

13) Cost of HW reduced to 2

14) Impact POA ??“ allow HW to count vs steady pk/sp. ???Heavy weapon + against any foot???

15) Stationary Pikes/Spears in Impact phase only get + if at least 3 or 2 ranks deep.

16) New scouting/initiative/terrain system insert in ???Full Set-Up??? section. (See Appendix 5). Outflanking march cannot be commanded by C-in-C. The full set-up rules will be used at Usk.

17) Last bullet in Cohesion levels and effects table changed to:

???1 base removed for each enemy battle group in contact at the start of each inter-bound. ???

18 ) ???Does not count as STEADY??? added to descriptions of DISORDER and SEVERE DISORDER. ??“ so that disordered spears/pikes don??™t count as steady vs swords.

19) FRAGMENTED troops ??“ simple move ??“ retire from all enemy withing 12 MUs

20) ???A battle group in close combat can only be rallied by a general who is fighting in its front rank (See P.49). He can join the battle group to do so in the Inter-Bound phase, but must then stay fighting in the front rank until the close combat is over.???

21) Rear supporters must be at least half the original strength of supported battle group.

22) Melee: ??? ??? Rear ranks must belong to the same battle group.???

23) Impact POAs:

???Impact foot + If charging non-shock mounted other than elephants???



24) DISORDERED and SEVERELY DISORDERED added POA exceptions where appropriate.

Impact:

???Only in open terrain (See P.91) Extra for 4th rank of pikemen whether charging or not + if STEADY???

???Any spearmen or pikemen if not charging + unless FRAGMENTED or SEVERELY DISORDED or less than 2 ranks of spearmen or 3 ranks of pikemen

Pikemen or offensive spearmen if charging foot or non-shock mounted.
Defensive spearmen if charging defensive spearmen + unless SEVERELY DISORDERED or less than 2 ranks of spearmen or 3 ranks of pikemen???

Melee:
???Spearmen (at least 2 ranks) + unless FRAGMENTED or SEVERELY DISORDERED???

???Pikemen (at least 3 ranks) + unless FRAGMENTED or SEVERELY DISORDERED???

???Extra for 4th rank of Pikemen + if STEADY???

25) BG Destroyed in combat - Test as if it was broken.

War Wagon stuff

1) Definition: ???War Wagons WWg Horse or Ox drawn wagons usually with missile-armed crew on board. Treated as foot. Not very manoeuvrable, so always treated as Undrilled. Treated as if 2 bases side by side when shooting from or in close combat on their long base side, 1 base if shooting from or in close combat on their short base side.???

2) Charging

?????? War wagons cannot charge.???

3) Charging into the Flank or Rear

?????? War wagons and troops in ORB formation (See P.60) never count as being charged in flank or rear, whichever base edge is contacted. War wagons do not turn if contacted on their side or rear base edge.???

4) Moving into Contact with Enemy in the movement phase

???Battle groups can move into contact with enemy in the movement phase, but only if they are joining an existing melee as an overlap only. This is the only situation in which war wagons can move into contact with enemy.???

5) Battle Group Normal Formations

??? ???In a mixed battle group of war wagons and other foot, the other foot can turn 90 degrees to face the war wagons, so that they are supporting the long side of the war wagon bases. However, the battle group can only advance if all bases in the battle group are facing the same direction as the war wagons.???

6) Turning 90 degrees

?????? In a mixed battle group of war wagons and other foot, the other foot can turn 90 degrees to face the war wagons, so that they are supporting the long side of the war wagon bases.???

7) Arc of Fire: ???War Wagons can shoot from any side of their base ??“ chosen by the shooting player. They are treated as if 2 bases side by side when shooting from their long base side, 1 base when shooting from short base side.???

8 ) Shooting Dice: ???Chariots or war wagons 1 dice per front rank base???

9) Shooting POAs: ???War wagons, in cover or behind TF - Any except artillery ???

10) Troops eligible to fight in the Impact phase

??? ???War wagons are treated as if 2 bases side by side when fighting on their long base side, 1 base when fighting on their short base side.???


11) Impact POAs
???Elephants + against heavy or medium foot, war wagons or any mounted???

???Knightly lancers + against any except elephants, chariots, war wagons or non-charging STEADY pikemen/spearmen???

???Other lancers + against any except lancers, elephants, chariots, war wagons or non-charging STEADY pikemen/spearmen???

???Heavy or scythed chariots + against any except skirmishers, elephants, war wagons or non-charging STEADY pikemen/spearmen???

???War wagons or uphill or foot defending field fortifications,
a hedge or a river bank +???

12) Troops eligible to fight in the Melee Phase

??? ???War wagons are treated as if 2 bases side by side when fighting on their long base side, 1 base when fighting on their short base side.???

13) Melee Dice:

Main Rules:

???Artillery 1 dice per front rank base. No dice for rear rank bases of any type.
War wagons 1 dice per front rank base. 1 dice per 2nd rank foot base other than war wagons.???

Ref-Sheet:

???Artillery or war wagons 1 dice per 1st rank base. WWg count 1 dice per other foot in 2nd rank???

14) Melee POAs

War wagon or uphill or foot defending field fortifications, a hedge or a river bank +

???Elephants + against heavy or medium foot, war wagons or any mounted???

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:11 pm
by donm
25) BG Destroyed in combat - Test as if it was broken.
Does shooting count as combat? Cannot think of any reason why a destroyed unit is not very bad news whenever it happens.

Don M

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:18 pm
by rbodleyscott
donm wrote:
25) BG Destroyed in combat - Test as if it was broken.
Does shooting count as combat? Cannot think of any reason why a destroyed unit is not very bad news whenever it happens.

Don M
Yes Don. The actual wording in the forthcoming version is:

"If an as yet unbroken friendly battle group is destroyed as a result of base loss(es) it is tested for as if it was broken."