Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting phase

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KiwiWarlord
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Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting phase

Post by KiwiWarlord » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:47 am

The rules, pp130, states ' javelins/Shooting/LF or LH skirmishers only.

Question, Can any foot other than LF or LH throw javelins in the shooting phase?

Only asking this question as there are lists that have allowed MF a Javelin in the Capabilities Shooting Column, and people are using them in the shooting phase.

Thanks
Brian
Last edited by KiwiWarlord on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by willb » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:09 am

If they do not have javelins listed as a shooting weapon in the army list then they cannot do so.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by KiwiWarlord » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:25 am

The Mayan list,pp35 Blood & Gold, gives Javelins as a shooting weapon for Medium Foot Impact Swordsmen.
The rules, as quoted above pp130, specifically state that only LF & LH can throw Javelins in the shooting phase.
Which is correct, the Army List or the Rules ?

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by philqw78 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:55 am

They forgot about the americas when they wrote the rules. Who can blame them?
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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by zoltan » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:15 am

Certainly looks like something for the FAQs. While page 130 is a Glossary (and you expect glossaries to be definitive), the last para on the left hand column of page 129 provides context. "The capabilities available to each historical troop type are specified in our companion army list books." In the Blood and Gold army list book it goes into quite a lot of detail about the Mesoamerican missile weapons.

As Phil says, just a simple editing glitch due to the passage of time between the rulebook and the final army list books. I couldn't see the usual catch-all statement about weather the rules over ride the lists or vice versa.

That's two gotchas in a matter of weeks Brian; you must have to much time on your hands!
:lol:

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by richnz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:33 am

Page 80 says bases that have a shooting capability in their troop description in the army list books can shoot. Pretty clear.

And the Blood and Gold book came after the main rules so is surely an addition.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by richnz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:49 am

Anyway, from our last game Brian I believe the problem wasn't the Mayan shooting, it was that your longbowmen couldn't hit the side of a barndoor :)

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by KiwiWarlord » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:18 am

Looks like not enough time to study all of the rule book Steve. Will just have to wait for Spanish reinforcements to beat Richard's boys.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:22 am

For clarity, the intention is that MF with javelins capability can shoot.

The idea when we wrote the B+G book was to replicate the account of the conquistadors, who suffered from showers of missiles including atlatl darts and so were prompted to charge the Aztecs.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by KiwiWarlord » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:40 pm

grahambriggs wrote:For clarity, the intention is that MF with javelins capability can shoot.

The idea when we wrote the B+G book was to replicate the account of the conquistadors, who suffered from showers of missiles including atlatl darts and so were prompted to charge the Aztecs.
So the Aztecs should not get the 'Impact Foot' factors as they were not charging ?

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:46 am

Warlord wrote:
grahambriggs wrote:For clarity, the intention is that MF with javelins capability can shoot.

The idea when we wrote the B+G book was to replicate the account of the conquistadors, who suffered from showers of missiles including atlatl darts and so were prompted to charge the Aztecs.
So the Aztecs should not get the 'Impact Foot' factors as they were not charging ?
I didn't say the Aztecs weren't charging, merely that the missile barrage obliged the Spanish to do so. The general gist of the sources is "a terrible barrage of missiles, we charged the Indians, who hammered into us ferociously. And then by dint of our sword arms and the grace of god we prevailed after a tremendous struggle"

The Aztec or Mexica warriors went into battle with the atlatl in their right hand and 4 or 5 darts held in their left hand. the atlatl allows a greater force to be applied to the dart than hand throwing. After the darts were expended it's thought that the apprentice took the atlatl to free the warriors up for a fierce charge with broadsword and/or spear.

After the initial clashes, where the Aztecs found that glass swords worked poorly against steel armour and reed shields and cotton armour didn't stop steel thrusting swords (very much a -- POA) the Aztecs took to fighting from terrain where possible.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by ShrubMiK » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:21 pm

I don't really see this as a FAQ issue. Surely it is pretty obvious that the specific (i.e. an army list) should, in a coherent system, override the general (i.e. the main rules)? Nothing else makes any sense.

Another example would be Byz Cats...IIRC correctly there is nothingin the main rules which allows or talks about cats being able to shoot, and the army lists say they do so as if cavalry...or did I just completely invent that? It's entirely possible, it's a while since I've read either rules or lists, or even managed to play a game of any ruleset :*(

Having said that, it seems a bit odd that there was a perceived need to specify anything in the main rules about limiting what troop types could shoot*, you would have thought that expressly identifying capabilities as shooting, impact, melee would solve any problems that might arise and a few words could have been chopped out of the text, ink saved, trees spared, etc. Not sure what the thought process was there. As Phil said, what it comes down to in the end is - an oversight. But not a fatal one.

(* Aside from the special case of who can shoot when in a mixed BG, which simply doesn't align neatly with the capabilities model)

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:33 pm

Am I missing something here. In the main rules, Combat mechanism section, decinding how many dice to roll for shooting it says "Light foot, Light horse or any troops with Javelins, Sling, Firearm or Bow*". So it specifically says any troops with javelins can shoot.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by ShrubMiK » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:35 pm

Debatable ;)

You could also take that to imply that any light foot or light horse can shoot. Which is untrue is it not?
Or that trops currently rotuing, or facing in another direction, or troops currently incombat, or...i.e. it's a bit of rules that says if you can shoot according to other parts of the rules which apply, then this is how many dice you get to roll.

Ah...okay I'm being a bit pedantic on what you said there...but fair point that it does seem to imply an intent that there would be the possibility of troops other than LF or LH being given Javelins capability. Is that the para that was alluded to in the OP? If so, then maybe a lot of this thread (and my comments too!) is all a flap about nothing...LOL.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by zoltan » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:09 pm

grahambriggs wrote:Am I missing something here. In the main rules, Combat mechanism section, decinding how many dice to roll for shooting it says "Light foot, Light horse or any troops with Javelins, Sling, Firearm or Bow*". So it specifically says any troops with javelins can shoot.
So is that an apparent contradiction within the rulebook with regard to the bit Brian quoted on page 130? Why did the authors appear to feel the need to restrict Javelin shooting to LH/LF on page 130? Editing glitch?

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by philqw78 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:28 pm

Warlord wrote:The rules, pp130, states ' javelins/Shooting/LF or LH skirmishers only.
Thanks
Brian
That isn't what it says

It does say
Image
Just like slings doesn't mention staff slings and firearms don't mention fire tubes
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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by KiwiWarlord » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:53 am

Peltasts, a specialist dual purpose troop type, were armed with javelins and spear yet have no shooting capability ?

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:28 am

zoltan wrote:
grahambriggs wrote:Am I missing something here. In the main rules, Combat mechanism section, decinding how many dice to roll for shooting it says "Light foot, Light horse or any troops with Javelins, Sling, Firearm or Bow*". So it specifically says any troops with javelins can shoot.
So is that an apparent contradiction within the rulebook with regard to the bit Brian quoted on page 130? Why did the authors appear to feel the need to restrict Javelin shooting to LH/LF on page 130? Editing glitch?
I suspect it's an oversight. You could argue that the glossary on page 130 gives a description of the type of troops that used that capability but is not exhaustive. However, that would be splitting hairs.

Certainly when RBS and I (and others) wrote Blood and Gold it was with the specific intention that MF with atlatl could have javelins capability and shoot.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:51 am

Warlord wrote:Peltasts, a specialist dual purpose troop type, were armed with javelins and spear yet have no shooting capability ?
I think the 'dual purpose' bit has been questioned as a possible wargames myth. The suggestion being that they started as decent light foot skirmishers and later on became close combat line of battle troops with long spears. Any evidence that they affected battles with their javelins in this later stage?

The difference with the Amercian types is that a dart launched from an atlatl has more force than if purely hand thrown, the primary written sources tell that missile barrages were a substantial element of warfare, and that pictoral sources show the use of the atlatl in battle by the Aztec battle line.

Hence we felt that this merited javelins capability. At a range of 2MU and only 1 die per 2 bases it's not the more dramatic capability but it seems to produce the desired effect - prompting small BGs of Spanish armoured foot and horse to charge home rather than muck about. Following which they usually beat up the Aztecs in the melee. It doesn't make much difference at all against American foes as the volume of shooting is insufficient to trouble bigger units.

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Re: Can MF ( impact foot ) throw Javelins in the shooting ph

Post by zoltan » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:32 pm

grahambriggs wrote:The difference with the Amercian types is that a dart launched from an atlatl has more force than if purely hand thrown, the primary written sources tell that missile barrages were a substantial element of warfare, and that pictoral sources show the use of the atlatl in battle by the Aztec battle line.
As anyone who has one of those tennis ball "throwing arms" for exercising dogs knows, you can propel the tennis ball 3-4 times as far compared with simply throwing it with your arm. Much the same concept as staff slings, atlatl, and the aborigine javelin extender.

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