How can I charge?

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paullongmore
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Re: How can I charge?

Post by paullongmore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:00 pm

I was there although not playing. Thanks Brian for posting the diagrams.

The rules for Flank and rear charges are on pages 55 - 57 and are largely identical being.

1) You cannot start in front of the target.
2) You must have a base behind the line extending the front of the target BG.
3) "...the first part of the enemy BG contacted must be the side or rear edge or rear corner of one of its bases. Although it isn't specified I believe it is fairly clear that a rear edge contact is a rear charge and a flank edge is a flank charge. rear corner appears to be unspecified (although maybe Graham can back up his assertion that it is defined as a flank)

The big difference between a flank and rear charge is that a flank charge cannot wheel if it nstarts within an inch. (pg56). Also as the target is fighting to its front you cannot charge the flank unless it is a legal charge (pg57).

So in the first diagram I believe that the unit can advance then wheel up to 90 and strike the rear for a rear charge.
The 2nd diagram then occured the next round. In this case I was not sure. Unless you can deliver a rear charge you must manoeuver to set up the charge next time. The unspecified status of a rear corner strike and whether indeed you can deliver one from there both can be argued. You cannot slide across as this is for front corner to front corner only.

At that stage Spike had obviously lost due to his inability to roll anything but 2's all night and a dice was rolled and a rear charge was allowed. On balance I think we should have played it that they had to waste a round.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by bbotus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:29 pm

So in the first diagram I believe that the unit can advance then wheel up to 90 and strike the rear for a rear charge.
We play it the same.
The 2nd diagram then occured the next round. In this case I was not sure. Unless you can deliver a rear charge you must manoeuver to set up the charge next time. The unspecified status of a rear corner strike and whether indeed you can deliver one from there both can be argued.
The authors have purposefully made it impossible to charge a unit you are touching. You can move to overlap though.
You cannot slide across as this is for front corner to front corner only.
That is how the rules are written. Doesn't it seem odd that you can make the manoeuver one way but not the other?

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by Caliph » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:04 pm

Thanks Paul (the maestro who helped me). Though I can remember throwing the dice to see what happened and the 2nd BG ending up fighting in two directions I thought it was a slide and no impact. I am however getting old (white hair etc). What is clearly remembered is Spike throwing more than 2's, he also rolled some 1's & 3's, as well as a few that hit.

I can understand why you can't charge a BG you are already in contact with but cannot see why a BG with front corner to rear corner contact cannot move into a position to contribute to or even initiate combat.

I think Polkovnik has identified the easiest/most logical method of a rear corner contact being either a flank or rear charge.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Have read v1 now and yes it s different to v2 in wording. v1 text doesn't tell you whether hitting the rear corner is a flank charge or a rear charge. But the diagram on page 57 makes it clear. It has a unit charging a rear corner within 1MU and says "this BG cannot wheel as it is within 1MU of it's target". since flank charges have that restriction but rear charges don't, hitting the rear corner must be a flank charge

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:20 pm

bbotus wrote:Situation 2: (Interesting position)

Red is in corner to corner contact with Green. Therefore, Red cannot charge Green. To charge it must first move away.

If Red wishes to engage Green, it does so in the Manoeuvre Phase. It could move forward into overlap which is partial or full side edge contact with the green base in contact with blue (Page 75). Or, it could follow the rules on page 76 "BGs Already In Contact But Not Yet Committed To Close Combat". The problem is, this situation isn't covered as red is in front corner to rear corner contact. I think a fair minded ref would allow the paragraphs under "Front Corner To Front Corner Only" to apply. So you could shift sideways to engage green in the rear. There is no impact combat in this case per the last sentence in that section.

I agree. To charge you must make "legal contact" and corner to corner is not (p52 bottom). it says at least one base must contact with its front edge or with a front coner against an enemy base edge. The other red base won't be able to contact as the white BG is in the way (and Green bases are already fighting so you can't make a flank charge.

If Red and Green were the ONLY BGs present, it looks like Red could wheel 90 degrees to make front edge to flank edge contact. It could only charge in that way as you don't step forward until you make legal contact (pg54). But it still wouldn't be a rear charge (rear corner is a flank charge) and can't be a flank charge (wheeling within 1MU. So rather bizzarely I think it will be a frontal charge.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by bbotus » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:47 pm

If Red and Green were the ONLY BGs present, it looks like Red could wheel 90 degrees to make front edge to flank edge contact. It could only charge in that way as you don't step forward until you make legal contact (pg54). But it still wouldn't be a rear charge (rear corner is a flank charge) and can't be a flank charge (wheeling within 1MU. So rather bizzarely I think it will be a frontal charge.
I used to think that, too, but page 76 kept getting in the way. In IMPACT you make legal contact (implying 1st contact). In MANOEUVER, if already in contact, the section on page 76 applies. Granted, it doesn't cover this situation. But I've come to the conclusion that the authors don't intend that a BG can charge a unit it is already in contact with. If already in contact, then either the melee spreads and they join in or the BG moves into a valid overlap position.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by petedalby » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:32 am

I think Graham maybe anticipating a V2 change. I can't find any mention of a rear corner distinction in my rules.

And FWIW I think you played it correctly.
Pete

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:29 am

petedalby wrote:I think Graham maybe anticipating a V2 change. I can't find any mention of a rear corner distinction in my rules.

And FWIW I think you played it correctly.
I had been but in v1 the diagram on page 57 makes it clear. A BG is charging and first contacts a rear corner from within 1MU. And the diagram says it therefore can't wheel. So surely that must be a flank charge?

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:43 am

bbotus wrote:
If Red and Green were the ONLY BGs present, it looks like Red could wheel 90 degrees to make front edge to flank edge contact. It could only charge in that way as you don't step forward until you make legal contact (pg54). But it still wouldn't be a rear charge (rear corner is a flank charge) and can't be a flank charge (wheeling within 1MU. So rather bizzarely I think it will be a frontal charge.
I used to think that, too, but page 76 kept getting in the way. In IMPACT you make legal contact (implying 1st contact). In MANOEUVER, if already in contact, the section on page 76 applies. Granted, it doesn't cover this situation. But I've come to the conclusion that the authors don't intend that a BG can charge a unit it is already in contact with. If already in contact, then either the melee spreads and they join in or the BG moves into a valid overlap position.
Not sure that legal contact inplies first contact. "To charge, move your battle group forward making any wheels or formation changes allowed, until a „legal‟ contact is made" seems the relevant rule. Also, the step forward rule make it clear that step forwards makes further contacts. Still, it seems to come up very rarely so not a big deal.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by petedalby » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:58 am

I had been but in v1 the diagram on page 57 makes it clear. A BG is charging and first contacts a rear corner from within 1MU. And the diagram says it therefore can't wheel. So surely that must be a flank charge?
But see the errata Graham - it changes the position entirely.
Pete

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:14 am

petedalby wrote:
I had been but in v1 the diagram on page 57 makes it clear. A BG is charging and first contacts a rear corner from within 1MU. And the diagram says it therefore can't wheel. So surely that must be a flank charge?
But see the errata Graham - it changes the position entirely.
I don't believe it does. The errata says:

"P.57 Diagram. Top right text box currently reads “Yes. This BG has one of its front rank bases entirely
behind the line and no part of its bases to the target’s front”
It should read: “Yes. This BG has at least one of its bases entirely behind the line and no part of any of its
bases to the target’s front”
Bottom left text box should simply read “Yes. This BG can charge the rear and can wheel to make contact
with more bases than it would by going straight ahead.”"

The bottom left text box is not relevant to this point (that BG can clearly charge the rear edge).

The top right text box is rewritten to make it plain why the BG it refers to can make a legal flank charge

But neither of these text boxes contain the wording I am talking about There is a thrird text box, that tells you the BG can't wheel as it's within 1MU. The errata does not change that wording.

The errata also makes clear "There is no requirement to start more than 1 MU from the target to wheel as part of a rear charge.". Indeed - and that is exactly what the main rules say. And since there remains a text box that tells you that the (cataphract?) BG in question can't wheel as it's within 1MU; and it's clearly going to hit the rear corner then the only conclusion surely is that hitting the rear corner is a flank charge.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by philqw78 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:12 am

If you wheel within 1 MU and hit the flank it counts as a frontal contact.

But you can wheel within 1 MU to hit the rear and it counts as rear. And a rear corner is surely at the rear. The clue being in the name.

A picture paints a thousand words. But you are ading your own Graham
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:55 am

Oh well, I though it was clear - there's a box on the digram that says specifically they can't wheel and count it as a flank/rear charge. Not to worry - it must be rare that it matters.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by kevinj » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:38 pm

I thought as Graham did, that the rear corner counted as flank rather than rear. In Fog R it is defined (P77) that a Rear charge is one that contacts the rear edge, hopefully V2 will contain similar clarification.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by batesmotel » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Polkovnik wrote:
grahambriggs wrote: You need to read the flank and rear charge section more carefully. I've quoted earlier in the thread the rule that makes it clear that a charge that first contacts a rear corner is a flank charge.
Not relating to the example here, but what if you first contact a rear corner but then step forward into the rear edge ? Presumably the base you contact when stepping forward would have to turn to the rear. But you are saying that this is a flank charge, not a rear charge. So how would you then line up and conform ?
This happened in a game this week and we treated it as a rear charge.
That would seem to be a rear charge since you would be contacting the rear edge, not just the rear corner. It's only contact at the rear corner only that seems to be a special case of a flank charge.

Chris
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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:37 pm

kevinj wrote:I thought as Graham did, that the rear corner counted as flank rather than rear. In Fog R it is defined (P77) that a Rear charge is one that contacts the rear edge, hopefully V2 will contain similar clarification.
It does. Well, the beta versions I used did.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by bbotus » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:27 am

If you wheel within 1 MU and hit the flank it counts as a frontal contact.

But you can wheel within 1 MU to hit the rear and it counts as rear. And a rear corner is surely at the rear.
Graham has a good point that the diagram on page 57 implies and even states that a rear corner is a flank in that particular situation. But I can see a whole bunch of situations where defining the rear corner as a flank just doesn't make sense. And, the one mentioned by Polkovnik about hitting the rear corner and stepping forward into the rear is one of them.

We aren't going to resolve this since the authors are silent on this topic in version 1, unfortunately. But you have all given me points to consider if a similar situation comes up in our games. Thanks.

P.S. I hope version 2 has something to say about the starting position of the charge in relation to flank vs rear, also.

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by kevinj » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:39 am

And, the one mentioned by Polkovnik about hitting the rear corner and stepping forward into the rear is one of them.
Surely this is analagous to hitting the front corner and stepping forward into the flank, i.e. it counts as what you hit first?

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Re: How can I charge?

Post by philqw78 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:16 am

kevinj wrote:Surely this is analagous to hitting the front corner and stepping forward into the flank, i.e. it counts as what you hit first?
So if I hit a rear corner and step forward into a rear base its a frontal charge??????
phil
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Re: How can I charge?

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:32 am

philqw78 wrote:
kevinj wrote:Surely this is analagous to hitting the front corner and stepping forward into the flank, i.e. it counts as what you hit first?
So if I hit a rear corner and step forward into a rear base its a frontal charge??????
Only if it's not a proper flak charge

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