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How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:33 pm
by Caliph
These occurred last night at the club and caused a spirited discussion which I watched and listened to with interest. I really appreciated the assistance I got resolving these though I am still not quite 100% on the outcomes and would appreciate further input, with apologies in advance for my poor diagrams.
Firstly:
Question 1.gif
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The red and blue BG's are Arab Cavalry, green is Byzantine. Red is in a column (as a result of a pursuit) and is in diagonal line from top right to bottom left (approx 45 degrees) with the front right hand corner of the leading base slightly in front of a line extending the rear of blues rear left base (as you look at it) with the rest of the column behind a line extending the front of blue. The front of red was less than an inch from blue. The main sticking point for this was not wheeling within an inch of the target for a flank charge. How can red move into contact?

Secondly:
Question 2.gif
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Red white and blue are Arabs, green is Byzantine. BG's green & blue are in close combat, green facing down the page, blue facing up the page. Red is facing down the page and is in front corner (red) to rear corner (green) contact with green. How does red charge, or move into contact with, green?

Thanks

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:44 pm
by philqw78
In the first example you can wheel and hit the flank but it does not count as a flank charge.

In the second wheel and charge hitting the rear corner, which is a rear charge

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:34 pm
by ShrubMiK
Hold on...I'm a bit confused...!

I assume the description for the first example meant to say in front of GREEN's rear edge, not BLUE's?

...in which case all makes sense, panic over. I was beginning to think the column might be facing towards bottom left, and trying to work out wth was going on!

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:05 pm
by grahambriggs
philqw78 wrote:In the first example you can wheel and hit the flank but it does not count as a flank charge.

In the second wheel and charge hitting the rear corner, which is a rear charge
One out of two correct Phil. Hitting a rear corner is a flank charge. So these are two variants of the same situation. They will both count as a frontal charge. The relevant rules are:

"For a charge to qualify as a flank charge both of the following must apply:
- The first part of the enemy battle group contacted must be the side edge or rear corner of one of its bases.
- The charge cannot include a wheel unless the charging battle group starts its move with its nearest point at least 1 MU away from the battle group being charged.
For a charge to qualify as a rear charge, the first part of the enemy battle group contacted must be the rear edge of one of its bases."

An alternative way to get into contact would be to move to an overlap position in the movement phase.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:15 pm
by Caliph
ShrubMik, yes sorry about that.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:30 pm
by bbotus
Situation 1:

The description is confusing since several situations are possible.
Hitting a rear corner is a flank charge.
The rules are not this definite. Nothing in the rules differentiates between a flank and a rear charge (Ref 1st bullet, page 56). If anyone can reference a post in this forum clarifying this issue, I would very much appreciate it. I haven't been able to find anything on it.
In the first example you can wheel and hit the flank but it does not count as a flank charge.
I don't think so. A BG can only charge a flank of an enemy BG in close combat if it is in a position to make a valid flank charge and cannot wheel into the flank if it starts within 1 MU of the target (Ref pages 55 & 56). And (ref FAQ 4iii) a BG may not contact the flank of the 1st two ranks of an enemy BG in close combat other than by a valid flank charge.

You could wheel into the rear of the enemy BG. The errata for the diagram on page 57 says there is no requirement to start more than 1 MU from the enemy BG to wheel for a rear charge. Again, though, the rules do not clearly define a rear verses flank charge. So, if you hit the rear corner, is it a flank or rear? It is an umpire call or house rule at this point since the authors have not made any distinction as yet.

Situation 2: (Interesting position)

Red is in corner to corner contact with Green. Therefore, Red cannot charge Green. To charge it must first move away.

If Red wishes to engage Green, it does so in the Manoeuvre Phase. It could move forward into overlap which is partial or full side edge contact with the green base in contact with blue (Page 75). Or, it could follow the rules on page 76 "BGs Already In Contact But Not Yet Committed To Close Combat". The problem is, this situation isn't covered as red is in front corner to rear corner contact. I think a fair minded ref would allow the paragraphs under "Front Corner To Front Corner Only" to apply. So you could shift sideways to engage green in the rear. There is no impact combat in this case per the last sentence in that section.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:47 pm
by dave_r
If I understand the first diagram correctly and the column is facing top right, then you'd move forward PAST the side corner, turn 90 degrees and then smash into the rear of the block.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:03 pm
by gozerius
dave_r wrote:If I understand the first diagram correctly and the column is facing top right, then you'd move forward PAST the side corner, turn 90 degrees and then smash into the rear of the block.
I think you mean "wheel up to 90 degrees and then smash into the rear of the block

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:31 am
by hazelbark
bbotus wrote: The rules are not this definite. Nothing in the rules differentiates between a flank and a rear charge (Ref 1st bullet, page 56). If anyone can reference a post in this forum clarifying this issue, I would very much appreciate it. I haven't been able to find anything on it.
Uh, i don't have my rules with me but there is plenty of differentiation. in the section that says charging a flank or rear.
Among others the rule specifically says "flank" when refering to the 1 MU to wheel. This is in a section with lots of flank and rear statements. So clearly there is a difference in the rules.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:22 am
by bbotus
hazelbark wrote:
bbotus wrote: The rules are not this definite. Nothing in the rules differentiates between a flank and a rear charge (Ref 1st bullet, page 56). If anyone can reference a post in this forum clarifying this issue, I would very much appreciate it. I haven't been able to find anything on it.
Uh, i don't have my rules with me but there is plenty of differentiation. in the section that says charging a flank or rear.
Among others the rule specifically says "flank" when refering to the 1 MU to wheel. This is in a section with lots of flank and rear statements. So clearly there is a difference in the rules.
I've got the rules here and I don't see the differentiation. I think we all agree that if you hit the rear side, then it is a charge on the rear. But the rules don't say so. And, if you hit the rear corner, is it a flank or a rear charge? It is not defined. Does the starting position of the charging unit make any difference? The rules are silent on this issue. So you can argue that the rear corner could be a flank or a rear charge. It could be very important if you start the charge less than 1 MU from the target BG. Also, what if I want the charge to be either a flank or a rear charge because of the position I want the units to conform to in the Manoeuver Phase; am I allowed to call the rear corner either a flank or a rear at my option?

I'd be very happy for any specific references you can quote to help resolve this issue.

The closest thing I can find is page 70 on conforming by the minimum necessary to the enemy bases in contact. This would resolve most such charges unless you hit at exactly the bisecting angle on the rear corner. And some mathematician will probably come up with a flank hit that conforms to the rear and/or vice versa.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:44 am
by petedalby
The detail for this situation appears on pages 55, 56 & 57.

There appears to be a distinction bewtween a flank charge and a rear charge.

A flank charge cannot include a wheel unless the charging BG starts at least 1MU away - page 56. There appears to be no similar restriction for a rear charge - although the diagram on page 57 makes specific reference to a BG which is clearly to the rear of the target being over 1MU away and hence able to wheel. So the words and pictures differ - not helpful.

The diagram also shows a BG on the right of the picture which looks capable of hitting the rear of the target - but specifically states that it cannot wheel as it is within 1 MU of the target.

Based upon what I've just read I would say that neither BG, in the examples, given could execute a flank or rear charge.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:01 am
by bbotus
A flank charge cannot include a wheel unless the charging BG starts at least 1MU away - page 56. There appears to be no similar restriction for a rear charge - although the diagram on page 57 makes specific reference to a BG which is clearly to the rear of the target being over 1MU away and hence able to wheel. So the words and pictures differ - not helpful.

The diagram also shows a BG on the right of the picture which looks capable of hitting the rear of the target - but specifically states that it cannot wheel as it is within 1 MU of the target.
Check out the Errata for page 57 Diagram. It fixed the error. It says that there is no restrictions on wheeling in a rear charge and changes the wording in the left bottom box. The note on the BG on the right says it can't wheel as it is within 1 MU of the target. It will hit the right rear corner of the target. So in this case the right rear is a flank. But is it always a flank?

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:37 am
by grahambriggs
bbotus wrote:
hazelbark wrote:
bbotus wrote: The rules are not this definite. Nothing in the rules differentiates between a flank and a rear charge (Ref 1st bullet, page 56). If anyone can reference a post in this forum clarifying this issue, I would very much appreciate it. I haven't been able to find anything on it.
Uh, i don't have my rules with me but there is plenty of differentiation. in the section that says charging a flank or rear.
Among others the rule specifically says "flank" when refering to the 1 MU to wheel. This is in a section with lots of flank and rear statements. So clearly there is a difference in the rules.
I've got the rules here and I don't see the differentiation. I think we all agree that if you hit the rear side, then it is a charge on the rear. But the rules don't say so. And, if you hit the rear corner, is it a flank or a rear charge? It is not defined. Does the starting position of the charging unit make any difference? The rules are silent on this issue. So you can argue that the rear corner could be a flank or a rear charge. It could be very important if you start the charge less than 1 MU from the target BG. Also, what if I want the charge to be either a flank or a rear charge because of the position I want the units to conform to in the Manoeuver Phase; am I allowed to call the rear corner either a flank or a rear at my option?

I'd be very happy for any specific references you can quote to help resolve this issue.
You need to read the flank and rear charge section more carefully. I've quoted earlier in the thread the rule that makes it clear that a charge that first contacts a rear corner is a flank charge.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:44 am
by grahambriggs
bbotus wrote:Situation 1:

The description is confusing since several situations are possible.
Hitting a rear corner is a flank charge.
The rules are not this definite. Nothing in the rules differentiates between a flank and a rear charge (Ref 1st bullet, page 56). If anyone can reference a post in this forum clarifying this issue, I would very much appreciate it. I haven't been able to find anything on it.
In the first example you can wheel and hit the flank but it does not count as a flank charge.
I don't think so. A BG can only charge a flank of an enemy BG in close combat if it is in a position to make a valid flank charge and cannot wheel into the flank if it starts within 1 MU of the target (Ref pages 55 & 56). And (ref FAQ 4iii) a BG may not contact the flank of the 1st two ranks of an enemy BG in close combat other than by a valid flank charge.
Oh yes, the last point is a good spot - can't do a "non flank flank charge" if the first two ranks are in close combat.

In other circumstances though you can do a wheel and charge the flank within 1MU. It's specifically allowed in the rules; one of the later bullets in the loooong list of bullets in that section:

"A charge which does not qualify as a flank or rear charge can still contact the flank edge of an enemy base, provided that it was not already in melee to its front. Such a charge does not count as a flank or rear charge, and is treated as a normal charge on the enemy front."

But given your spot of the clatification in the FAQ, it seems that the OP cannot flank charge in either example.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:07 pm
by Caliph
The main problem came about from the way the rules are written. In the bullet points on pages 55, 56 & 57, all except one refer to "flank or rear" and this was the primary cause of the differing opinions during the game. The one bullet point that doesn't lump flank and rear together is the wheeling within an inch which specifically refers to " a flank charge".

I have not been able to find anything that says a rear corner contact is a flank charge."For a charge to qualify as a flank or rear charge, the first part of the enemy battle group contacted must be the side or rear edge or rear corner of one of its bases". So a rear corner contact could be either a flank, or rear, charge. I would assume the initial and final positions of the charging BG would dictate whether it was flank or rear.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:19 pm
by philqw78
grahambriggs wrote:One out of two correct Phil. Hitting a rear corner is a flank charge. So these are two variants of the same situation. They will both count as a frontal charge. The relevant rules are:

"For a charge to qualify as a rear charge, the first part of the enemy battle group contacted must be the rear edge of one of its bases."
Due to the post above where did you find this Graham, or did you just make it up to try and look cleverer than me?

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:14 pm
by grahambriggs
You say that as if it would be a bad thing.

Don't have v1 with me but i do have v2 beta and it's in there but not marked as a change from V1. I'll need to check when I get home now.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:04 pm
by petedalby
Check out the Errata for page 57 Diagram. It fixed the error.
Great - thanks. That's certainly the way we've always played it - just forgot to look there first.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:07 pm
by bbotus
Don't have v1 with me but i do have v2 beta and it's in there but not marked as a change from V1. I'll need to check when I get home now.
Great, Graham. I wonder what other changes are coming on flank charges. I can see a unit moving left to right across the rear, wheeling and hitting the rear right corner for a flank charge.

Re: How can I charge?

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:35 pm
by Polkovnik
grahambriggs wrote: You need to read the flank and rear charge section more carefully. I've quoted earlier in the thread the rule that makes it clear that a charge that first contacts a rear corner is a flank charge.
Not relating to the example here, but what if you first contact a rear corner but then step forward into the rear edge ? Presumably the base you contact when stepping forward would have to turn to the rear. But you are saying that this is a flank charge, not a rear charge. So how would you then line up and conform ?
This happened in a game this week and we treated it as a rear charge.