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V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:06 pm
by hoodlum
Hi had a couple of games of v2 and the same scenario has cropped up a couple of times now.

I have LF skirmishing in front of Cav - the LF are charged and roll down they commence interpentrating but cannot complete it. In both circumstances the understanding has been that they do not complete the inteprentration and end up being caught.


However on reading the rules on the PC it appears to be quite different to people's understanding:

"If a battlegroup does not have sufficient move distance to pass through another battlegroup to pass fully through another battlegroup it can nevertheless pass completely through if there is room beyond and any of the following apply (otherwise it cannot pass through at all):"

one of the following bullet points reads:

"It is light foot with sufficient move to reach any part of the battle group being interpenetrated. Unless evading or routing, it must pass through in the same or opposite direction to that faced by the battle group being passed through. It cannot then shoot this turn."

From my reading - the light foot just have to reach the battlegroup to be able to pass through if evading from a charge. Nothing relates to where the front bases relate to.

I am not sure what the significance of the second sentence means - what is the same or opposite direction - is this from front to back? Is this to limit extra movement to complete the pass through. ?


On reading the new rules - I see that if Light foot evade 3 mu back and the first base reaches the supporting unit - it does not have to fully interpenetrate nor does the second ranked base have to start the interpenetration then the whole unit of LF can interpentrate and pass through to clear space behind that unit.

The remaining senteces apply if the interpenetration occurs in the movement phase.

Your thoughts?

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:18 am
by pyruse
The "same or opposite direction" bit means light foot can't interpenetrate if they are coming in at 90 degrees to the unit; this used to allow them to teleport the full length of a long line of troops. Now they will be caught.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:55 am
by prb4
The "same or opposite direction" bit means light foot can't interpenetrate if they are coming in at 90 degrees to the unit;
My reading of this is a bit more harsh.
I think "same or opposite direction" bit means front to back or back to front ONLY, with no angle between the units at all.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:55 pm
by SDnz
Where the interpretation is based only on any part of the unit this becomes a bit strange. If I have a 6 element unit of LF in column that means the last element can ge betting an extra 3 inches of movement.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:41 am
by zoltan
Page 8-13 applies.

For LF the starting rule is that they can pass through any troops in any direction.

This rule is then further qualified for the situation where a battle group does not have sufficient move distance to pass completely through. In that situation as long as there is sufficient room for the interpenetrating battle group to be placed beyond the interpenetrated battle group, they may pass through if any one of the following (further) conditions apply:

1. The LF start in front to front or front to rear edge contact with the battle group to be interpenetrated and:
(a) can fully clear the interpenetrated BG
(b) the interpenetrated BG is only one base deep

2. The LF has sufficient move to reach any part of the BG to be interpenetrated (this implies only part of a LF front rank base need 'reach' the BG to be interpenetrated). If the LF is evading or routing it can pass through in any direction. Non evading or routing LF can only pass through front to rear or rear to front

3. Troops other than LF that are evading or routing can only pass through if all of the rear rank bases (that will interpenetrate) have sufficient move distance to reach the interpenetrated BG. Otherwise, evading or routing non LF don't interpenetrate

Of course, the above options only apply if there is room beyond the interpenetrated battle group.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:58 pm
by Martin0112
zoltan wrote:Page 8-13 applies.

For LF the starting rule is that they can pass through any troops in any direction.

This rule is then further qualified for the situation where a battle group does not have sufficient move distance to pass completely through. In that situation as long as there is sufficient room for the interpenetrating battle group to be placed beyond the interpenetrated battle group, they may pass through if any one of the following (further) conditions apply:

1. The LF start in front to front or front to rear edge contact with the battle group to be interpenetrated and:
(a) can fully clear the interpenetrated BG
(b) the interpenetrated BG is only one base deep

2. The LF has sufficient move to reach any part of the BG to be interpenetrated (this implies only part of a LF front rank base need 'reach' the BG to be interpenetrated). If the LF is not evading or routing it can pass through in any direction. Evading or routing LF can only pass through front to rear or rear to front

3. Troops other than LF that are evading or routing can only pass through if all of the rear rank bases (that will interpenetrate) have sufficient move distance to reach the interpenetrated BG. Otherwise, evading or routing non LF don't interpenetrate

Of course, the above options only apply if there is room beyond the interpenetrated battle group.

Maybe my english is not as good as yours, but I understand point 2 exactly the other way round.
LF can pass through if it can reach any part of the BG to be interpenetrated only from the front to the rear. Exception to the rule is while evanding or routing, then it can go through in any direction if it reaches any part of the BG to be interpenetrated.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:52 pm
by zoltan
Martin0112 wrote:Maybe my english is not as good as yours, but I understand point 2 exactly the other way round.
LF can pass through if it can reach any part of the BG to be interpenetrated only from the front to the rear. Exception to the rule is while evanding or routing, then it can go through in any direction if it reaches any part of the BG to be interpenetrated.
Quite right - I fixed it thanks! :lol:

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:43 pm
by zoltan
Under v2 LF no longer have the ability to add 2 MUs to their normal/variable move when interpenetrating friends. In recent games we've found that this makes a significant difference with LF often being caught if a player doesn't position their troops "properly".

For example, last night a BG of 6 LF (3 bases wide and 2 bases deep) evaded and attempted to interpenetrate friendly cavalry behind. The cavalry BG was not parallel with the LF, but on an angle. The LF threw down 2MUs on its VMD meaning it would only move 3 MUs in total. One of the LF bases was 2 MUs from the cav, another just over 3 MUs and the third well over 3 MUs (due to the angle between the two BGs).

Theoretically, the LF were entitled to interpenetrate the cav as they were "...LF with sufficient move to reach any part of the battle group being interpenetrated".

However we decided that 9-18 (penultimate bullet point in right hand column) meant that the LF did not pass through the cav but stopped short (getting caught in the rear and massacred). "Battle groups that can not complete an evade move by any of the above means (moving sideways, dropping back bases etc) move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."

So under v2 it seems to be really important to have your battle line just within 3MU of your LF skirmish line and nicely parallel if you want to be certain that your LF will be able to evade to safety when charged.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:52 am
by rbodleyscott
zoltan wrote:Under v2 LF no longer have the ability to add 2 MUs to their normal/variable move when interpenetrating friends. In recent games we've found that this makes a significant difference with LF often being caught if a player doesn't position their troops "properly".

For example, last night a BG of 6 LF (3 bases wide and 2 bases deep) evaded and attempted to interpenetrate friendly cavalry behind. The cavalry BG was not parallel with the LF, but on an angle. The LF threw down 2MUs on its VMD meaning it would only move 3 MUs in total. One of the LF bases was 2 MUs from the cav, another just over 3 MUs and the third well over 3 MUs (due to the angle between the two BGs).

Theoretically, the LF were entitled to interpenetrate the cav as they were "...LF with sufficient move to reach any part of the battle group being interpenetrated".

However we decided that 9-18 (penultimate bullet point in right hand column) meant that the LF did not pass through the cav but stopped short (getting caught in the rear and massacred). "Battle groups that can not complete an evade move by any of the above means (moving sideways, dropping back bases etc) move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."

So under v2 it seems to be really important to have your battle line just within 3MU of your LF skirmish line and nicely parallel if you want to be certain that your LF will be able to evade to safety when charged.
No, because they can pass through the friendly BG in any direction if any part of the evading LF BG reaches them. Hence in your example they can complete their evade move, so the paragraph you quote does not apply.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:17 pm
by Polkovnik
zoltan wrote:So under v2 it seems to be really important to have your battle line just within 3MU of your LF skirmish line
This part is correct. To keep LF safe, they must be able to reach the battle troops behind with a 3 MU move. The angle does not matter though, and only one base of the LF has to be within 3 MU. Previously you had to make sure that every base could reach the battle troops behind with a 3 MU move, so you can actually position them slightly wider apart now, and not worry so much about angles and distances.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:45 pm
by zoltan
rbodleyscott wrote:No, because they can pass through the friendly BG in any direction if any part of the evading LF BG reaches them. Hence in your example they can complete their evade move, so the paragraph you quote does not apply.
OK, then we were playing that wrong. So you are saying that as long as at least one LF base manages to start interpenetrating the cav (even by just a Gnat's todger), the whole LF BG can pass completely through and scuttle away (as long as there is room for it to be placed behind the cav).

Thanks for clearing that up.

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:39 pm
by zoltan
How man friendly battle groups can LF interpenetrate during an evade?
Can evading LF move greater than their VMD to clear all friendly battle groups interpenetrated during their evade?

Start (knights declare a charge on LF)
Image

LF evade their maximum (5 MU) clearing their first friends but ending up in the middle of their second friends
Image

LF have started a second interpenetration so they may complete it and are placed beyond the second friendly BG (even though this exceeds their 5 MU move)
Image

Did we do this right?

Re: V2 Interpenetrations - LF evading

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:25 am
by Polkovnik
If their evade move (normal move + VMD) is enough to contact the second unit then they are able to interpenetrate this unit and they are placed beyond them. So yes, it looks like you did it correctly.