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Rules for measurement Q/comment?

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:17 am
by korvus
When moving, deploying, what is the rule for the measurement of distances? Are you allowed to pre-measure distances to ensure you've left a battlegroup sized hole in the line, or moved to just within missile fire or charge range, or are you expected to guess and hope for the best?

I ask because there is a lot of variation in the rules on this between various different games, and I can't find the practice clarified one way or another.

Thanks
Cole

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 am
by nikgaukroger
Nothing in the rules prevents premeasurement - which I think is a good thing as I dislike it when it is not allowed.

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:00 am
by stevoid
In fact, one style of play down here is to measure and move (leaving a marker of course) and the declare whether you are in or out of any critical distances, e.g. "I've stopped just outside 4MU" etc. This can preempt a lot of problems :)

Steve

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:39 am
by shall
Thems as like measuring can measure...

them's as likes guessing can guess.

We have a broad church :wink:

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:58 am
by korvus
Thanks.

Does that mean that the rules for how this will be handled in a tournament are up to an organizer, or do you have to argue it out on a game by game basis with your opponents.

I hope its the former at least, as the latter can make for a pretty crappy day.

Cole
All in favour of consistency, whatever it is.

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:23 am
by hammy
I would expect that the default tournament position is that pre measurement is perfectly acceptable. In my experience tournaments where pre measurement is not allowed can easily decend into arguments over fractions of an inch. Moving to a declared position is far more gentlemanly.

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:29 am
by rbodleyscott
korvus wrote:Thanks.

Does that mean that the rules for how this will be handled in a tournament are up to an organizer, or do you have to argue it out on a game by game basis with your opponents.

I hope its the former at least, as the latter can make for a pretty crappy day.
There is nothing in the rules to prevent pre-measurement. The authors intend that pre-measurement should be allowed. There is no basis in the rules on which a tournament organiser could rule against it.

Coming from a background where pre-measurement has never been prohibited, it never occurred to the authors that such a prohibition would be anyone's default position.

Our view is that the players represent generals, not artillery sergeants.

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:39 pm
by shall
Thems as like measuring can measure...

them's as likes guessing can guess.

We have a broad church
Indeed in my view this is the rule. Its allowed - if you want to do it go ahead.

Si

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:27 am
by korvus
Thank you again gentlemen. It may well be worth considering that those who have played DBM, Warrior, etc, will be of the same mind as you, but that those new to the game may well have had another experience. Many skirmish scale games don't allow pre-measuring for instance (Daft to my mind, but hey, game designers, who can tell :)

Also, over here in Canada, if it isn't explicit, someone is sure to choose wrong :) And then get tetchy about it :)

Anyways, thanks again.
Cole

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:33 am
by BrianC
I hear you korvus, I prefer to play against players who play historically rather than getting the last ounce of advantage of where a base is located. IMO where a base or BG is, is not written in stone, its rather a general location. A little fudge either way is ok as long as it doesn't get out of hand although it can be fattening :)

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:02 am
by terrys
The reason we allow pre-measuement is to avoid micro-managemnt.
Our opinion is that a BG of bowmen know how far they can shoot, so would move the requisite distance to get the best effect from their shooting. Equally, troops who wish to charge know the optimum time/distance for doing this and would make their approach accordingly.

Rules that don't allow you to pre-measure are putting you in the position of a low-level unit officer rather than the higher level leaders that the players represent in these rules.

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:00 pm
by sagji
terrys wrote:The reason we allow pre-measuement is to avoid micro-managemnt.
Our opinion is that a BG of bowmen know how far they can shoot, so would move the requisite distance to get the best effect from their shooting. Equally, troops who wish to charge know the optimum time/distance for doing this and would make their approach accordingly.

Rules that don't allow you to pre-measure are putting you in the position of a low-level unit officer rather than the higher level leaders that the players represent in these rules.
While advancing to be in your own range is reasonable, I think other usages are less justafiable - the worst case is advancing to be just outside your opponent's range. The game places very hard limits on shooting / charge range but reality was much softer and more subjective.

If a BG was advancing to stay out of the enemy's charge/shooting range it would stop significantly further away than if it was advancing to be within its own charge/shooting range - whereas in game terms it would stop only a foot further away.

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:54 pm
by shall
Its back to choice. If people want to measure best to allow it.

If you find it fun to guestimate instead and feel that is more real go for it. Perfectly legal between consenting adults :wink:

I quite like games that make me guestimate but its a different feel and not ideal for competition games.

But it wastes a lot of time where people charge, are then out of reach and then have to go back and cancel it. While amusing that wastes valauble game time which given the articifical time limits that are necessary in comp organsiation would be counter to getting the most results one can in a round. In a social game this is much less of an issue.

But great fun in friendlies..... so go for it.

Si

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:10 pm
by korvus
Again, its nice to hear you think that pre-measuring is a good idea, but I'd also like to heartily recommend it as a candidate for the FAQ or Errata. Anything that helps remove a potential cause of disagreement between two players is essential.

>If you find it fun to guestimate instead and feel that is more real go for it

And for those who think guessing is "more real" you should consider that most officers and NCO's worth their salt can judge the range with a small enough margin of error to mimic the effect of pre-measurement.

Of course, if you wanted to be really real, you could say that a CMT test can be taken to pre-measure, representing the quality of the guess ;)

Have fun!
Cole