Forced charge through charging Troops

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RSDPIT
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Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by RSDPIT » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 pm

I recently created a situation where i had shock troops behind non shock troops, I wanted the "front non shock Unit" to charge so declared a charge, it was then pointed out that the shock troops were in charge range so would need to test not to charge, I then tested the rear unit of shock troops not to charge, they had an insecure flank, General and rear support, typically they failed, what happens now?

The rules state in the turn sequence, "Make all charge moves in any order", so your choice is to
1) let the rear unit charge through, disrupting the front unit, which will cancel the charge of the front unit because they can't charge through a unit in contact with the enemy
2) or if the enemy has evaded they both charge and you hope the front unit is faster than the rear unit, either because their basic move is faster or the Variable dice has been kind slowing the rear unit or speeding the front unit
3) or finally if the rear unit is faster it will still burst thru the front unit and both continue the full extent of their charge plus variable dice move, with the burst thru Unit disrupted

petedalby
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by petedalby » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:35 am

Nice one - and something that is not covered by the rules. As you get to choose the order of charges option 2 seems to be a reasonable choice.

Just to clarify - this is a CMT - not a Cohesion Test - so an insecure flank is irrelevant.
Pete

philqw78
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by philqw78 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:19 am

Thought there was something in there about not charging through troops who had declared a charge. At work so can't check yet
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putting the arg into argumentative

berthier
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by berthier » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:42 am

Shock troops will not charge through other shock troops or troops "already" in melee p. 63. Quotations are mine. So even if you choose to send the non-shock troops in first, the shock will still charge through them as they are not "already" in melee.

Maybe not the intent.
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grahambriggs
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:38 pm

RSDPIT wrote:I recently created a situation where i had shock troops behind non shock troops, I wanted the "front non shock Unit" to charge so declared a charge, it was then pointed out that the shock troops were in charge range so would need to test not to charge, I then tested the rear unit of shock troops not to charge, they had an insecure flank, General and rear support, typically they failed, what happens now?

The rules state in the turn sequence, "Make all charge moves in any order", so your choice is to
1) let the rear unit charge through, disrupting the front unit, which will cancel the charge of the front unit because they can't charge through a unit in contact with the enemy
2) or if the enemy has evaded they both charge and you hope the front unit is faster than the rear unit, either because their basic move is faster or the Variable dice has been kind slowing the rear unit or speeding the front unit
3) or finally if the rear unit is faster it will still burst thru the front unit and both continue the full extent of their charge plus variable dice move, with the burst thru Unit disrupted
Yes I think they both declare charges. So I think the following would happen.

1) If you let the rear unit charge first, it will burst through the front unit, dropping it a cohesion level in the process, and shifting it back if necessary (if it can't the charge is cancelled and the shock unit drops a cohesion level). The non shock unit then needs to charge. If it can make a legal contact it can do so (unlikely but possible depending on the exact positions of units). The rules don't cover what happens if it can't make a legal contact. It can't move through the shock unit (as it's not allowed to burst through or interpenetrate). I imagine the two possibilities are cancel the charge or stop when you hit the rear of the shock unit. Sounds most logical to cancel the charge, as it's similar to the 'formation changes when charging' section.

2) If the enemy evades and you move the shock unit first, that's the same as 1). If you move the non shock first it may or may not contact the enemy. If it contacts, the enemy drops a cohesion level. Then the shock troops charge. They move their full move (including any variable). If they contact the rear of the non shock unit that will get shifted behind the shock troops per the burst through rules - your case 3). So the evaders might get away after all.

LordNytram
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by LordNytram » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:57 am

Oddly enough I had a similar situation last night.

Consider a U shaped position. Unit 1 is shock troops (knights) charging diagonally from bottom left of the U to the top right (as below towards enemy knights E), unit 2 is MF xbow charging diagonally from the bottom right of the U towards the top left (after evading enemy light foot "e"). There is no chance of them meeting as the gap is too wide. However in between them there is unit 3, basically another unit of knights at the very base of the U that I don't want to charge from bottom to top towards unit "e" but which fails its test to hold.
OOEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
1OOOOOOOOOOeeeeOOOO2
O1OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO2O
OO1OOOOOOOOOOOOO2OO
OOO1OOOOOOOOOOO2OOO
OOOOOOOO3333OOOOOOOO

Unit 1 moves diagonally to the right and impacts opposing knights "E" but my right most base is left hanging in the path of unit 3 charge with no enemy to its front. The Xbow unit also charges diagonally to the left into the path of unit 3's charge but all opponents evade. Sure I can choose the order of the charge and might avoid complications but lets say I choose to move 1 and 2 before 3.

I'm content that unit 3 will burst through the xbow but does unit 3 burst through the knights of unit 1 which are fighting on its left hand end or stop behind them? One further option is for unit 3 to drop back a base. If it does this is can avoid the knights of unit 1 but not the Xbow of unit 2.

I think that I'm allowed to drop back a base for unit 3 and so only burst through the Xbow as there is nothing in the rule of changing formation during a charge that seems to preclude this. I know during evades you can't shift unless you can avoid All troops but that limitation isn't there in the rule on changing formation in a charge.

Thoughts?

petedalby
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by petedalby » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:32 am

Sorry Martyn but without a clearer diagram I can't make sense of the question.
Pete

terrys
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Re: Forced charge through charging Troops

Post by terrys » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:37 am

My take on this is:

Shock troops do not test if they would have to burst through friends and the enemy is 'skirmishers'.
Therefore this situation would only occur if the enemy is cavalry in single rank that can evade, or are already Fragmented and break when charged.
You then have to choose:
a) Move the front rank BG first, and hope that the shock troops do not roll high enough to burst through it
b) Move the shock troops first - disordering the front rank BG, which then moves as far as it can behind the shock troops.

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