Number of troops/fighters in a BG?

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Claudius
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Number of troops/fighters in a BG?

Post by Claudius » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:21 pm

The Rules Book says that there are "about" 250 fighters in a BG?

In working up the shooting firepower, charge/impact and melee combat tables and rules, what were the assumptions on the number of troops in the various types of BG:
LF?
MF?
HF?
LH?
CAV?
KN?
CAT?
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

hammy
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Re: Number of troops/fighters in a BG?

Post by hammy » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:56 pm

Claudius wrote:The Rules Book says that there are "about" 250 fighters in a BG?

In working up the shooting firepower, charge/impact and melee combat tables and rules, what were the assumptions on the number of troops in the various types of BG:
LF?
MF?
HF?
LH?
CAV?
KN?
CAT?
The figure scale of FoG is not strictly defined. A BG is a group of a significant size rather than a set number of men. If you really want a scale then 250 men per base is as good a number as any.

A BG of 4 bases of Roman legionaries in a Republican army could represent the Hasti and Principes of half a legion so 4 bases represent 1200 men.

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:14 am

Is 1200 men not a quarter of an early legion, but a half of a later legion, and bigger than most legions at the end. :?

ars_belli
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Post by ars_belli » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:44 am

Mid-Republican ("Polybian") Roman legion = 4200 legionaries, so 1200 = 28.57142%.
Late Republican ("Marian") Roman legion = 4800 legionaries, so 1200 = 25%.
Principate ("Early & Middle Imperial") Roman legion = 5280 legionaries, so 1200 = 22.272727%.
Dominate ("Late Imperial") Roman legion = varied widely in size, but frequently 1000-1200 legionaries, so 1200 = 100-120%.

Roughly speaking, of course. :wink:

To return to the original question, the authors of FoG have described it as a "top-down" wargame design. The number of troops represented per BG can vary widely, depending on the scale of the armies being depicted. In practice, it means that you can set for yourself whatever troop scale you think is most appropriate.

Cheers,
Scott
Last edited by ars_belli on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

hammy
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Post by hammy » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:05 am

The 'establishment' strength of a mid republican (manipular) legion was:

1200 velites
1200 Hastati (10 mainples of 120)
1200 Principes (10 mainples of 120)
600 Triarii (10 mainples of 60)
300 Equites

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:08 am

Is 1200 men not a quarter of an early legion, but a half of a later legion, and bigger than most legions at the end.
I was talking about my own legions during the game :lol:

pyruse
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Post by pyruse » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:29 am

Claudis:
The Rules Book says that there are "about" 250 fighters in a BG?
----------------
It says there about 250 men in a BASE - so a 4 base BG has about 1000 men.

Lycanthropic
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Post by Lycanthropic » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:09 pm

There must be clearly defined troop scales. The constant "there weren't enough of this troop type to warrant a single BG" would be invalid otherwise.

nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:22 pm

There is a clue in the very first line of the first post in this topic :lol:

It is consistent with the bow range in the rules.
Nik Gaukroger

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Claudius
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Post by Claudius » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:46 pm

Sorry, I meant to say 250 soldiers in a BASE.
Mind slipped the units so to speak.

Regarding missile fire power:
A LF or LH bow unit appears to have less effective firepower than a MF or Cav bow unit.

In an exchange between LH/LF bow and MF/Cav bow:

> LH/LF bow get 1 dice per 2 bases in effective range [+1 dice per 3 bases outside effective range] — and lose 1 dice per 2 shooting dice.
For a six base BG, with all bases within effective range, that is a maximum of (3 dice - 2/2 dice) = 2 dice

> MF/Cav bow get 1 dice per 1st rank base in effective range [+1 dice per 1st rank base within maximum range] [+ 1 dice per 2 2nd rank bases] — and lose no dice.
For a six-base BG, with 3 1st rank bases and 3 2nd rank bases all within effective range, that is a maximum of 3 + 3/2 = 4.5 = 5 dice (rounding up)

Since each fighter has a bow, that implies that there may be significantly fewer fighters in LF/LH bow units than in MF/Cav bow units.
Possibly by a ratio of 2::5 dice = 40%
So a LH/LF bow horse base may have only 40% of the shooters/troops of a MF/Cav bow base.

Is amy math correct or faulty?
Cheers!

Ne bibere venenum in auro!

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Post by The_Bishop » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:50 pm

Claudius,

You raise a good point, unfortunately your maths not quite correct. The dice loss for LH/LF is only at impact or melee; not point in handicapping them twice. Also with the Cavalry they only gain one dice per full two bases for the second rank, so that 0.5 should be discounted instead of rounding up. So,

For a 6 base LH BG firing at Cav they have 6 bases with 1 dice per two = 3 dice

For a 6 Base Cav BG firing back at the LH they have three front rank bases at 1 dice each, and three rear rank bases at one dice per full two = 4 dice

Overall your idea is correct that the Cavalry have a greater effect at shooting, and this is more pronounced when the Cavalry are in even numbers (no wasted bases) or in a single rank (all shooting at 1 per 1); however it's not quite the 40% ratio you had in mind.

Regards,
The Bishop

nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:27 am

Not your math, but perhaps your assumptions about how different troops types fought.

LH/LF are taken to shoot relatively individually whilst MF/CV types more as massed bodies, often shooting by volley. Thus the latter have a greater impact in their shooting and are represented by having more dice for a given number of bases.
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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shall
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Post by shall » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:36 pm

It is a little hazardous to try to relate the top-down balance too much to bottom up calculations. They are a useful cross-check but no more. The aim was always to get the top down feel of the interaction correct and balanced with the missile range. The figure scale can float to a considerable degree to achieve the army looking and feeling right on the battlefield.

The above example can be looked at many ways. .... 1 base of LH vs 1 base of Cv in single rank shooting means that on average 1 base of Cv will get 2x the number of arrows hitting the target when in their firing mode. Or, given that in itself hits isn't an end result, be rather more likely to force a cohesion test on a target. So it might be 2x the people firing at just the same accuracy and rate, or 1x the people but firing twice as often for the Cv, or the Cv firing in volleys from near stationary getting more hits from the same number of arrows than a speeding skimisher or.... so you can run the maths lots of different ways.

We found it best to come the other way and judge whether the overall balance of troop types and interactions met the objectives overall. And to get less hung up about micro-analyses. This top-down focus seems to have been an asset in many areas of the rules.

Not to put anyone off the maths of course :-)

Si
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