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Another charge question....

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:03 am
by Primarch
Ok, there are already 2 threads, but I couldnt find this specific answer in either one of them. Truth be told, I didnt read every line of every post, but mostly skimmed, so if someone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.




XXYY
XXYY

** ZZ



Ok,



X= BG of Knights
Y= BG of Aux, so MF
Z= Enemy BG of Longbow.



Now we are at the impact phase, and the Aux is around 3 inches from the Longbow, slightly less probably, but close to that. At this point, the Knights should have to roll to avoid charging if they wish to hold. If the roll is blown, then they will charge without orders. However, since you must declare other charges before making the roll, what if the Aux is declared to charge first?

If you declare the charge with the Aux, and they move up into contact, then the Knights will no longer have a legal charge target, as they couldnt complete a flank charge, and there would be no frontage for them to hit.

What actually happens here? Can you negate a roll by declaring the other charge, thereby claiming the Knight charge is no longer legal, and thus doesnt count?

This may not seem like much to some, but it happened at least 2 times in today's game, and could have happened a few more if we had pushed for it.


Now, here is what happened in the actual game. The Longbow was Fragmented, so when the Aux declared their intent, the Longbow rolled a Cohesion test and failed, so they broke. Now, at this point, the Longbow broke and ran, and the Aux rolled a 1 for their VMD. The Knights, having declared earlier that they werent able to legally charge the Longbow because the Aux would cover the frontage of the Longbow, didnt roll a VMD, and just turned and moved away on their movement phase.

To me, that is double dipping. The Knight charge isnt illegal until the Aux cover the Bow up and leave no frontage for the Knights to hit, but when the Longbow breaks and runs, the question arises again.

Any help with this would be appreciated.



Clay

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:14 am
by willb
see http://fieldofglory.fr/IMG/pdf/FULL_TURN_SEQUENCE.pdf


The following lines would apply to the situation you have posted.

2nd line - declare ALL charges
line 4 - make cohesion test to avoid charging
then line 6 - cohesion test for being charged while fragmented
then line 7 - make rout move
making the charge moves is line 12

If you follow the full turn sequence list the knights must test not to charge and must charge if they fail. if two units are charging the same target you would probably have to allow room for both to make contact.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:27 am
by Primarch
Sounds reasonable to me, thanks.



Clay

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:15 am
by nikgaukroger
I would draw your attention to the "Sequence of Charges and Responses" section on page 68 and then the "Formation Changes When Charging" section on page 54.

Depending on the situation it is possible that you could get it so that one charge is cancelled - although probably not quite in this case as I doubt you could wheel the MF far enough in which case both would contact (and to pre-empt page 91 tells you how to choose who fights where one side has more bases in contact in the impact phase than the other which may well happen if one of the charging BGs wheels in this case).

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:32 am
by hammy
Also remember that there is no restriction on two BGs contacting the same enemy base in the impact phase. Additionally in the impact phase the knights may well be able to charge the edge of the second rank of the longbow BG while the medium foot hit them in the front.

The limit on charging engaged bases only applies if the bases are engaged at the start of the impact phase.

Re: Another charge question....

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:38 am
by nikgaukroger
Primarch wrote: Now, here is what happened in the actual game. The Longbow was Fragmented, so when the Aux declared their intent, the Longbow rolled a Cohesion test and failed, so they broke. Now, at this point, the Longbow broke and ran, and the Aux rolled a 1 for their VMD.
I believe you don't roll a VMD for the chargers in this situation - only if all their targets evade.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:39 am
by nikgaukroger
hammy wrote:Also remember that there is no restriction on two BGs contacting the same enemy base in the impact phase. Additionally in the impact phase the knights may well be able to charge the edge of the second rank of the longbow BG while the medium foot hit them in the front.
Not if that diagram is close to reality :lol:

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:31 pm
by Primarch
Hmm, for some reason we have been playing that you do roll a VMD when a fragmented unit breaks when charged. So in this case, the MF would have moved their 4 inches, and the Knights would have moved their 4 or rolled not to charge, correct?


About the diagram, it is off, the Longbow should be lined up facing the MF, not the Knights, so I will adjust it accordingly.



Clay

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:58 pm
by hazelbark
Primarch wrote:Hmm, for some reason we have been playing that you do roll a VMD when a fragmented unit breaks when charged. So in this case, the MF would have moved their 4 inches, and the Knights would have moved their 4 or rolled not to charge, correct?
In your defense Clay, many people thought this, even great ones in the UK, until they gazed more intently into their crystal balls... :wink:

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:04 pm
by petedalby
In your defense Clay, many people thought this, even great ones in the UK, until they gazed more intently into their crystal balls...
AKA - read the rules more carefully - loads of people missed this!

Pete

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:36 pm
by shall
Yes lots miss that.

Another one missed here is...

The knights could anywqy charge into the side edge of the Longbow. This restriction is only against troops who are already in MELEE (i.e. have fought a melee round).

Thus therefore would allow the Aux to contact the front and the knight the side edge in the same chrage phase. At impact you can then choose to use 2 Kn dice and 2 Aux dice at impact. This is entirely deliberate to allow multiple BGs to charge a single BG and slelect who fights to some degree.

Note this is quite different to another stream where said target is already in combat from a provious bound. Careful not to confuse them.

Se page 53 last para.

Si

Si