Conform Question

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MkV
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Conform Question

Post by MkV » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:56 pm

Which is correct?

Image

rogerg
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Post by rogerg » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:59 pm

B, shortest distance.

dave_r
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Post by dave_r » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:58 pm

Of if you choose to conform the pink BG first then A.

If you do the pink one first it can only conform in one direction.

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Post by hammy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:05 pm

I was going to say that actually it has to be conform A as the red BG cannot be slid sideways to allow the pink to conform.

Then I realised that if you try to conform the red one first it will stay where it is as pink can't be slid and then pink will slide to conform.

If you conform pink first then it must slide as in conform 'A' which means that the red BG can then conform.

I cannot think of any situation where conform B is actually correct even though I have probably done it that way more than once when playing.....

rogerg
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Post by rogerg » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:15 pm

Oh dear, I was wrong again. I forgot that conforming is being done by BG not as a block. I suspect I have done B more than once. Do we need to raise the profile of this type of conforming or is it just a few of us who do what seems to be the natural thing?

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:22 pm

I was going to ask who charged - i.e. whose bound is it? I can't see it says anywhere but maybe I'm being even more dense than usual.
Nik Gaukroger

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MkV
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Post by MkV » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:47 pm

red and pink charged

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:57 pm

As far as I can see only A is permissable.

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lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:12 pm

rogerg wrote:Oh dear, I was wrong again. I forgot that conforming is being done by BG not as a block. I suspect I have done B more than once. Do we need to raise the profile of this type of conforming or is it just a few of us who do what seems to be the natural thing?
Where does it say that conforming has to be done one BG at a time?

Option B gives the minimum movement and the required end state, so it gets my vote.
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by terrys » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:31 pm

The rule states:
At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player’s battle groups already in close combat with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
• Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position (see below).
Since the Bgs conforming must do so by the minimum necessary. so (b) is the correct move.
The Red Bg moves the minimum amount to an overlap position, and the pink Bg moves by the minimum amount to front edge contact..

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Post by hammy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:44 pm

terrys wrote:The rule states:
At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player’s battle groups already in close combat with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
• Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position (see below).
Since the Bgs conforming must do so by the minimum necessary. so (b) is the correct move.
The Red Bg moves the minimum amount to an overlap position, and the pink Bg moves by the minimum amount to front edge contact..
OK, I see the point here. The red BG can conform to an overlap possition.

What is to stop the pink BG conforming first and sliding a whole base across to the left as it can't conform to the right without moving the Red BG which is in contact?

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:02 pm

I always hesitate to disagree with an author Terry....

Since both BGs are in close combat - why isn't A the option?

The conforming to an overlap position appears to be an option only where bases are in contact with a flank that did not qualify as a flank charge? Eg it's qualified by (see below) on P70?

I agree that the move should be the minimum move necessary - but that still looks like A to me. Unless I've misunderstood the qualification on the overlap option?

Pete

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Post by hazelbark » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:48 pm

I think the minimum necessary is clear.

What happens is people think you must ahve any base contact become full base contact. But that is not what the rules say.

Where this is mildly cheesy is the owning player can choose which two of his three bases to fight in impact. So could choose the BG that will then be pushed to con conform out of front edge. People will find it "off" but that is clear in the rules.

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Post by lawrenceg » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:00 pm

petedalby wrote:I always hesitate to disagree with an author Terry....

Since both BGs are in close combat - why isn't A the option?

The conforming to an overlap position appears to be an option only where bases are in contact with a flank that did not qualify as a flank charge? Eg it's qualified by (see below) on P70?

I agree that the move should be the minimum move necessary - but that still looks like A to me. Unless I've misunderstood the qualification on the overlap option?

Pete
I think the "see below" is refering to the definition of overlap position on page 75 (hence "below" relative to p70)
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Post by Primarch » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:03 am

Where this is mildly cheesy is the owning player can choose which two of his three bases to fight in impact. So could choose the BG that will then be pushed to con conform out of front edge. People will find it "off" but that is clear in the rules.


This may be the rule, but doesnt it feel odd? I mean, If you choose for one base from each BG to fight in the impact, then you "conform" and push one entirely into overlap, it just seems odd. You gain the benefit of the charge, then all of a sudden, after being in frontal combat, you can just slide over, and then on your next turn move away, and do whatever you wish?


In the above example, Pink is MF, Red is Knights. So, both charge, in the impact phase, they win, so the defending BG suffers from losing to lancers, but then in the melee, the Knights are nothing but an overlap attacker?


Maybe the author's intended this, but like you said Dan, people just think it feels off.


On second thought, take away the pink BG, then the Red one would indeed slide to the left, but according to opinion here, sliding left isnt the minimum necessary. Dont both BGs (Pink and Red) need to meet the requirement to conform by the minimum necessary? If there is nothing saying you must conform to frontally, then if Pink were not present, Read would slide to the right in the movement phase, thus ending the combat entirely.



I cant find anything that excludes Red from having to conform the same as Pink does, and if Red can indeed conform to an overlap, then it would do so with or without the existence of the Pink BG.


Clay

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Post by gozerius » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:06 am

I cant find anything that excludes Red from having to conform the same as Pink does, and if Red can indeed conform to an overlap, then it would do so with or without the existence of the Pink BG.
In the absence of pink, red must slide to the left, because an overlap position must be in contact with a friendly base fighting to its front.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:57 am

gozerius wrote:
I cant find anything that excludes Red from having to conform the same as Pink does, and if Red can indeed conform to an overlap, then it would do so with or without the existence of the Pink BG.
In the absence of pink, red must slide to the left, because an overlap position must be in contact with a friendly base fighting to its front.
Which is on page 75 for Clay's benefit.

I suppose if you wanted to bugger around in relation to the example posted at the start of this thread you could claim red cannot slide right into an overlap position as it wouldn't be in side edge contact as page 75 requires after it had slid. However, if I was umpiring and that was tried I'd be happy to slap the person trying it for being a dick :lol:
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Post by petedalby » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:51 am

So the answer is to wheel during the charge to ensure more of the red is in contact than the pink? Then when you conform you have a double overlap as in A.

Pete

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Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:12 pm

At first glance I would have said "B". But then I read again the rules. At page 71, first bullet of second column:

"Friendly battle group not in contact with enemy must be shifted sideways ..."

The key is not in contact. After charge, Red BG is in contact with enemy, so it cannot be shifted sideways to make room. Hence Pink BG has the only chance to shift left to conform. After that, Red can conform shifting left too.

But this situation can be mastered very simply with this reasoning: if owner of Red & Pink BGs wants use Red in impact phase, then he can charge in the way depicted, but in melee Red must keep front contact. Otherwise, he must charge only with Pink. Even if Red was a BG of Shock Troop, since "Declare all charges" is before of "CMT for shock troops wishing avoid charging" he doesn't need a CMT of Red BG because target has been "covered" by Pink BG.

Mario.
Last edited by marioslaz on Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:43 pm

I have played (and would rule) that if you throw Impact dice you Must throw Combat dice.
Is this not the intent of the Authors?
Gino
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