Conform Question

This forum is for any questions about the rules. Post here is you need feedback from the design team.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Moderators, Field of Glory Design

willb
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:26 am

Post by willb » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:54 pm

marioslaz wrote:At first glance I would have said "B". But then I read again the rules. At page 71, first bullet of second column:

"Friendly battle group not in contact with enemy must be shifted sideways ..."

The key is not in contact. After charge, Red BG is in contact with enemy, so it cannot be shifted sideways to make room. Hence Pink BG has the only chance to shift left to conform. After that, Red can conform shifting left too.

But this situation can be mastered very simply with this reasoning: if owner of Red & Pink BGs wants use Red in impact phase, then he can charge in the way depicted, but in melee Red must keep front contact. Otherwise, he must charge only with Pink. Even if Red was a BG of Shock Troop, since "Declare all charges" is before of "CMT for shock troops wishing avoid charging" he doesn't need a CMT of Red BG because target has been "covered" by Pink BG.

Mario.
see http://fieldofglory.fr/IMG/pdf/FULL_TURN_SEQUENCE.pdf
The CMT to not charge is done before charge movement. If the BG testing fails it must charge. Also the target would not be covered by the other battlegroup in that situation.

Primarch
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 am

Post by Primarch » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:03 pm

Exactly what I am thinking Gino. This seems to be a loophole bound to be used to try and cheese people. If you charge, and throw impact dice, then you should be tied into the combat until it ends, or you break off. There should be no option to use the above diagram to finesse your BGs so you can slide OUT of contact.

Even if Red was a BG of Shock Troop, since "Declare all charges" is before of "CMT for shock troops wishing avoid charging" he doesn't need a CMT of Red BG because target has been "covered" by Pink BG.

This is another question I posted in another thread. This has to be against Author's intent. If there is a legal charge target in front of shock troops, you would roll before any movement was made. Therefore, wouldnt you be obligated to move if you failed it? What if the target evaded? Then you cant know if your other BG can "cover" it up to keep the Knights or other shock from having a legal target.

Which is on page 75 for Clay's benefit

Yeah, I was trying to make a point, although poorly it seems. Having re-read the section yet again, what I was trying to say, is that unless it is impossible to slide, then nothing excludes the Red BG from having to conform to the left. Which would not be the minimum.
pg. 70 - At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player's battle groups already in close combat with the enemy MUST (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and or slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact.


The minimum necessary for the Red bg to slide to conform is to the left. The place it mentions conforming to an overlap, are under the bullet about contacting the flank, but not having a legal flank charge, there is no other mention of conforming into an overlap, so I cant see how that would be legal at all.


So, since Red cannot conform to an overlap, (see above), either, the active player chooses to conform Pink first, and they cannot conform, so Red is stuck as well, and the formation stays as is, but fights as if it had conformed. Or, the active player chooses Red to conform first, and since it cannot push Pink as pink is already in contact, then they still sit there like the diagram has them at impact.

I might be wrong here, but reading page 70 leads me to this conclusion. Of course super secret option 3, would be that all the conforms happen simultaneously, in which case, the minimum sliding to keep everyone legal would be for both BGs to shift left so that they split the enemy BG.



I know a bit mess of a post, but I cant find anything that excludes Red from having to conform frontally, nor can I find an allowance in this case to allow him to conform to an overlap.



Clay






Clay

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:19 pm

willb wrote:
marioslaz wrote:At first glance I would have said "B". But then I read again the rules. At page 71, first bullet of second column:

"Friendly battle group not in contact with enemy must be shifted sideways ..."

The key is not in contact. After charge, Red BG is in contact with enemy, so it cannot be shifted sideways to make room. Hence Pink BG has the only chance to shift left to conform. After that, Red can conform shifting left too.

But this situation can be mastered very simply with this reasoning: if owner of Red & Pink BGs wants use Red in impact phase, then he can charge in the way depicted, but in melee Red must keep front contact. Otherwise, he must charge only with Pink. Even if Red was a BG of Shock Troop, since "Declare all charges" is before of "CMT for shock troops wishing avoid charging" he doesn't need a CMT of Red BG because target has been "covered" by Pink BG.

Mario.
see http://fieldofglory.fr/IMG/pdf/FULL_TURN_SEQUENCE.pdf
The CMT to not charge is done before charge movement. If the BG testing fails it must charge. Also the target would not be covered by the other battlegroup in that situation.
So you mean that, in the situation depicted at first post, if Red BG is shock troop and Pink declare a charge, Red steals the target to Pink? Perhaps this is correct for tournament purpose, but I don't play in tournament and when I play with my friends the "Common sense rule" is at first place. In situation depicted, Pink owner must state if both charge, and in this case Red must conform and fight not only as overlap, or if only Pink charge. The 2 BGs ar in contact so it's historically logical that they can act in a co-ordinate ways, while it's a little odd to think Red try to charge a BG that is in front of a friendly unit if that friendly unit manifests intention to charge.

Mario.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:21 pm

kal5056 wrote:I have played (and would rule) that if you throw Impact dice you Must throw Combat dice.
I can't see anything that requires that.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:23 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
kal5056 wrote:I have played (and would rule) that if you throw Impact dice you Must throw Combat dice.
I can't see anything that requires that.
And anyway this don't resolve the question, because you can throw combat dice (melee) also as overlap...

Mario

lawrenceg
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:24 pm
Location: Former British Empire

Post by lawrenceg » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:53 pm

Primarch wrote:Yeah, I was trying to make a point, although poorly it seems. Having re-read the section yet again, what I was trying to say, is that unless it is impossible to slide, then nothing excludes the Red BG from having to conform to the left. Which would not be the minimum.

Clay
The fact that it is not the minimum excludes it from conforming to the left.
Lawrence Greaves

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:56 pm

True - I've been trying to work out how you might have a situation where you roll Impact dice but cannot in Melee (assuming the fight is still going on). I assume Gino has some example in mind here.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Primarch
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 am

Post by Primarch » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:59 pm

The fact that it is not the minimum excludes it from conforming to the left.

This is where we disagree. It must slide the minimum amount necessary TO CONFORM. Not, must slide the minimum necessary. See the difference, there is a caveat to that statement.

You arent just blindly sliding the minimum, you are sliding the minimum to conform frontally according to page 70. The only bullet that talks about conforming into an overlap is the one referring to hitting a BG on the flank where there is no legal flank charge.


Clay

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:05 pm

Primarch wrote: You arent just blindly sliding the minimum, you are sliding the minimum to conform frontally according to page 70. The only bullet that talks about conforming into an overlap is the one referring to hitting a BG on the flank where there is no legal flank charge.

This is where, I think, you are misreading the rules. When, in the first bullet in the conforming section on page 70 it says "overlap position (see below)" this refers to the section on p75 which defines what an overlap position is. The bullet on a charge hitting the flank but not being a flank charge is just a single case of ending uo in an overlap position which needs to be specifically explained as it may otherwise not be clear.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:10 pm

Primarch wrote:
The fact that it is not the minimum excludes it from conforming to the left.

This is where we disagree. It must slide the minimum amount necessary TO CONFORM. Not, must slide the minimum necessary. See the difference, there is a caveat to that statement.
I agree with your opinion. If the charge has been made as depicted, there was the will Red contacted with his front the enemy, so in conform Red must end in front contact with enemy and fight so melee.

Mario.

Primarch
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 am

Post by Primarch » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:10 pm

This is where, I think, you are misreading the rules. When, in the first bullet in the conforming section on page 70 it says "overlap position (see below)" this refers to the section on p75 which defines what an overlap position is. The bullet on a charge hitting the flank but not being a flank charge is just a single case of ending uo in an overlap position which needs to be specifically explained as it may otherwise not be clear.


After re-reading that section, the part that I missed was the bold overlap position, This would lead me to believe that Nik is right in this instance. If this is true, then I guess the door has been left open for abuse of this rule. I would love to see this loophole closed, as all you have to do is charge with 2 BGs, and make sure by wheels or whatever, that one is less than half a base width frontal to the target BG, and then you can "conform" out of combat.





Clay
Last edited by Primarch on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:22 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
Primarch wrote: You arent just blindly sliding the minimum, you are sliding the minimum to conform frontally according to page 70. The only bullet that talks about conforming into an overlap is the one referring to hitting a BG on the flank where there is no legal flank charge.

This is where, I think, you are misreading the rules. When, in the first bullet in the conforming section on page 70 it says "overlap position (see below)" this refers to the section on p75 which defines what an overlap position is. The bullet on a charge hitting the flank but not being a flank charge is just a single case of ending uo in an overlap position which needs to be specifically explained as it may otherwise not be clear.
But conforming to an overlap position is a move of a BG that join an existing melee during manoeuvre phase, isn't it? If you are already in contact at manoeuvre phase, this means you charged at impact phase, so it seems a little odd to me that a BG charges and then it fight as overlap, as if it joined an existing melee. This could happen if Red charged together with Pink, then in their manoeuvre phase they couldn't conform for some other reason (for example due to other friends or impassable terrain) and in next turn cyan BG conformed and chose to conform in contact with only Pink. This for me could be reasonable because simulate a melee protracted where Red is, little by little, excluded by melee due to the movement of combatants.

Mario

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:04 pm

Primarch wrote: After re-reading that section, the part that I missed was the bold overlap position, This would lead me to believe that Nik is right in this instance. If this is true, then I guess the door has been left open for abuse of this rule. I would love to see this loophole closed, as all you have to do is charge with 2 BGs, and make sure by wheels or whatever, that one is less than half a base width frontal to the target BG, and then you can "conform" out of combat.
Well as ever cheese is in the eye of the beholder, but allowing that we are looking at something in isolation from whatever is going on around this isn't something I'm worried about.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:08 pm

marioslaz wrote:
But conforming to an overlap position is a move of a BG that join an existing melee during manoeuvre phase, isn't it?
Not really - you are conflating two separate parts of the Manoeuvre phase. Joining an existing melee is something done by BGs who did not move in the Impact phase and happend after conforming.


If you are already in contact at manoeuvre phase, this means you charged at impact phase, so it seems a little odd to me that a BG charges and then it fight as overlap, as if it joined an existing melee.
May seem odd to you but it is specifically required in some circumstances the most obvious being hitting a base in the flank when your charge does not count as a flank charge when you cannot conform to the front of the enemy BG.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

kal5056
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 11:35 pm

Post by kal5056 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:23 pm

I think Clay has detailed the scenario that most concerns me. A bg of Cav and Knights are co-charging a BG it seems wrong that you could choose to fight with 1 base of Cav and 1 base of Kn in Impact (This applying the "loss to Lancer" minus) then the knights are only in overlap and as such are free to move away an impact another fight.

Now, if there were a rule that a BG that fought in Impact was required to remain in this overlap position until the end of the combat I would feel better.

Surely thatere is some historical "commitment" to charging into combat with a battle group. It should not be so simple to disengage and go about your business.

Here is an interesting possible downside for the mounted player. Say the lone BG is HF foot. The Cav and Knights charge and the HF remains steady through impact and mellee. Now the cav must break-off the knights however, as only in overlap do not break off. They are now in corner to corner contact and it is the HF players turn. He can then declare the melle exception listed in the rules for BG that find themselves in corner to corner contact only. This would then rob the Knights of a charge in which they may wish to engage.

Gino
SMAC

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:27 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:

If you are already in contact at manoeuvre phase, this means you charged at impact phase, so it seems a little odd to me that a BG charges and then it fight as overlap, as if it joined an existing melee.
May seem odd to you but it is specifically required in some circumstances the most obvious being hitting a base in the flank when your charge does not count as a flank charge when you cannot conform to the front of the enemy BG.
You are absolutely distorting my opinion. We was talking about a charge that produces a frontal contact. The case you mention is about a complete different situation and anyway is another example of what I call a good unrealistic rule, that is a rule historically unrealistic that anyway products an historically acceptable outcome.

Mario

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:07 pm

kal5056 wrote:I think Clay has detailed the scenario that most concerns me. A bg of Cav and Knights are co-charging a BG it seems wrong that you could choose to fight with 1 base of Cav and 1 base of Kn in Impact (This applying the "loss to Lancer" minus) then the knights are only in overlap and as such are free to move away an impact another fight.
As you'll have to fight in overlap in the melee phase of the move you charged in and the following melee phase in the opponents bound, during which they can react to where the BG is, before you have any option to move away I'm OK with it.

As for it possibly being better to havea rule saying you must stay until the melee is over I suspect you can argue any way you like as BGs can represent multiple units - and the rules aren't going to change methinks.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

gozerius
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:32 am

Post by gozerius » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:24 am

May I draw all of your attention to the diagram on page 87. While it does not specifically address the situation, it does clearly illustrate the explicit meaning of "by the minimum necessary" The lefthand BG slides left. The righthand BG MUST slide right, but is blocked by enemy so does not slide AT ALL.
In the debated situation, the righthand BG MUST conform to an overlap, because that is the minimum distance.
Don't try to argue that it won't be an overlap at the moment the move is made, because now we're talking out of our a**, because the lefthand BG MUST slide to the right to conform.
The only reason the right hand BG would slide left is if the lefthand BG did not exist, because then there would be no overlap.
In the diagram on page 87, it is clear that which bases rolled dice in the impact phase is immaterial.

pbrandon
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 1:08 pm

Post by pbrandon » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:09 am

Is conforming done by BG or simultaneously? If it is by BG then the RHS BG going right does not move it to an overlap position as defined on page 75 because it does not satisfy the "side edge to side edge contact with a friendly base...". The LHS BG can't conform to the right first because the other BG is in the way. I thought conforming was by BG because in conforming (p. 70) says "the active player's BGs....must pivot and/or slide...to conform to the enemy bases in contact", but it is not explicit. That said, I'm pretty sure I have played it both ways without thinking about it too much.

Paul
Last edited by pbrandon on Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

marioslaz
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: San Lazzaro (BO) Italy

Post by marioslaz » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:30 am

gozerius wrote:May I draw all of your attention to the diagram on page 87. While it does not specifically address the situation, it does clearly illustrate the explicit meaning of "by the minimum necessary" The lefthand BG slides left. The righthand BG MUST slide right, but is blocked by enemy so does not slide AT ALL.
A totally different situation, because the BG that should slide is blocked by enemy, not by friends. In this case, if you permit to BG to slide left, the BG would break contact with enemy, enemy that in their turn could turns and fight to their flank. So it's right they cannot slide left. This example don't move me of a millimetre from my opinion.
Mario.

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”