Deploying an Ambush

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TERRYFROMSPOKANE
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Deploying an Ambush

Post by TERRYFROMSPOKANE » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:12 pm

Page 142: "Ambushes must not be visible...." and "Ambushes are made by placing 'ambush markers'...."
Page 143: "When an ambush is revealed, place a base...on top of the ambush marker and then deploy the BG around this base"
One could read these rules as allowing bases to be deployed in open (visible) ground around the base placed on the ambush marker. Common sense and a strict reading of the first quote would argue against this. Am I right in assuming no bases of an ambushing BG can be deployed where they would have been visible at the start of the game -or- am I missing some cunning plan by the rule writers to allow such a deployment?
Thanks for the help.

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Post by dave_r » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:27 pm

One could read these rules as allowing bases to be deployed in open (visible) ground around the base placed on the ambush marker
I have certainly done this - I don't see any reason why not. My reading is that ambushes are placed by using ambush markers. Once the ambush is "sprung" then you then have to deploy within the guidelines - i.e. as long as you don't deploy any bases closer to enemy in visibility range. I use ambushes a lot and none of my opponents have complained too much...

Could be rationalised as troops bunched up hiding and then running out to deploy at the given signal.

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:48 pm

No offence Dave but I can't believe that someone let you get away with that.

Page 143 "No base can be placed closer than the first base to any enemy battle group to which it would be visible."

Unless I'm reading that wrong there is no way you could put it out in the open where it would've been visible all along?

Pete

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Post by dave_r » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:07 pm

Well it depends where the enemy are. If you have a solid line of enemy troops advancing towards you, with perhaps some skirmishers out front then when the ambush is sprung then you could choose to deploy in a solid line facing the enemy "wall".

In this case then you will be equi-distant from any enemy BG's so this would be legal?

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:33 pm

I don't believe so - no. The issue is not whether they are closer - it's whether they are visible. So being in a straight line is irrelevant. If they are in the open - they can be seen and can not therefore be in ambush.

The rules go on to cover what happens to you if you can't deploy as required - and the penalty is that any illegally deployed bases are lost.

So to go back to the original question from Terry - there is no cunning plan by the authors - play it as it was intended.

Pete

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Post by dave_r » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:43 pm

I don't believe so - no. The issue is not whether they are closer - it's whether they are visible
The paragraph in question states:

"When an ambush is revealed, place a base entirely on top of the ambush marker and then deploy the battle group around this base. It can face any of the edges of the ambush marker and can be in any legal formation. A commander who was ambushing with the battle group must be placed in legal contact with it. No base can be placed closer than the first base to any enemy battlegroup to which it would be visible"

Note that there is nothing in there about the first base having to be visible to the enemy BG - so in my example of long lines, the first base goes down at say 12" from an enemy BG - as long as all of the remaining bases are 12" or more away from that one enemy BG you are fine. My reading of the situation anyway.

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:52 pm

But surely the point that you're missing is that the first base you place on the ambush market isn't visible to the enemy - unless they've triggered it of course? The first base must be in terrain which makes it not visible to enemy. So trying to put other bases in the open makes them nearer in visibility terms.

I'll leave it for an author to give a definitive answer but taken to an extreme, if you're right - you could have a 12 base BG is ambush and just have 1 base in the terrain. Hardly plausible?

Pete

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Post by dave_r » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:59 pm

I concur that author assistance is probably required at this point.

Where are the muppetumvirate when you need them?

lawrenceg
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Post by lawrenceg » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:16 am

"When an ambush is revealed, place a base entirely on top of the ambush marker and then deploy the battle group around this base. It can face any of the edges of the ambush marker and can be in any legal formation. A commander who was ambushing with the battle group must be placed in legal contact with it. No base can be placed closer than the first base to any enemy battlegroup to which it would be visible"

OK. The first base may be visible if the enemy sprang the ambush, invisible otherwise.

Other bases may be visible or not.
If they are invisible, they can go anywhere.
If they are visible, they cannot be closer than the first base to ANY enemy BG that can see them.

So:

X is an enemy BG. Y is another enemy BG. A is the ambush marker in a small wood, the rest of the wod being off the page to the left. B is the ambushing BG after placement.

XXXX YYYY

A

B could deploy as

XXXX YYYY

B
B
B
B

becase all B's are visible to Y but further from Y than the first base.


B could not deploy as

XXXX YYYY

BBBB

because the right hand B is visible to Y and closer than the first base.



The original question was:

Does Page 142: "Ambushes must not be visible...." prevent you from placing any base where it would have been visible from the enemy deployment area at the start of the game?

The answer, I always thought, is no it does not prevent this. I equate "Ambush" with "Ambush marker", not with "BG in ambush". However, I can see that the opposite interpretation is also consistent with the rules as written.
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by gozerius » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:41 am

The wording regarding the placement of ambushing troops would allow a pair of BGs to effectively herd an ambushing BG into a very awkward deployment. Imagine, an ambush marker in the woods. A BG approaches the ambush marker from the left, but stays just outside of 2 MU from it. Then another BG approaches from the right, moves within 2 MU, and forces the ambush to be revealed. The ambushing BG is now limited to a columner formation, or a single ranked line perpendicular to the two BGs because no bases can be placed closer to an enemy BG if they would be visible to it.

There is nothing preventing an ambush marker being placed in clear terrain, as long as it is screened from the enemy deployment area. Just make sure that you check LOS every time an enemy BG is moved. Once the marker is visible, the ambush is revealed for what it is, and any troops must be placed in accordance with the rules.

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Post by SirGarnet » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:04 am

I believe lawrenceg is correct. These issues have been tossed about since development, including this one in which I had the same question

viewtopic.php?t=6754

In a 2007 thread language saying that no base could be placed where it would be visible to enemy was considered but rejected in favor of the current wording.

Incidentally, around April 5, 2008 there was a thread on whether troops can end up deployed outside the deployment area for ambush markers. Simon Hall said he had not seen it come up as an issue and conceded that there was no prohibition, but that if there was abuse it could be FAQ'd to limit abuse - such as having a marker just within its deployment area and deploying a large BG angled back stretching well into the center. A reasonableness issue.

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Post by zoltan » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:46 am

If a table had absolutely no terrian pieces whatsoever could any ambush markers be placed?

petedalby
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Post by petedalby » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:22 pm

No - see page 142.

Pete

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Post by andy63 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:01 pm

petedalby wrote:No offence Dave but I can't believe that someone let you get away with that.

Page 143 "No base can be placed closer than the first base to any enemy battle group to which it would be visible."

Unless I'm reading that wrong there is no way you could put it out in the open where it would've been visible all along?

Pete
I'm with you with this Pete,we all know how it should be played but certain players are scrutinising the rules to find wording so they can start trying there little tricks.
I agree the Authors need to clarify this, but why does players try to do this when its common sense how it should be played.If you got something like this why not get it clarified with the authors before trying it out on some poor opponent. I thought all the cheesiness style of play was left behind with DBM. :cry:

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Post by babyshark » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:34 pm

I think it is clear from a reading of the rules that lawrenceg has the correct analysis. I see no need for a clarification, FAQ, et cetera.

Marc

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Post by david53 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:22 pm

petedalby wrote:But surely the point that you're missing is that the first base you place on the ambush market isn't visible to the enemy - unless they've triggered it of course? The first base must be in terrain which makes it not visible to enemy. So trying to put other bases in the open makes them nearer in visibility terms.

I'll leave it for an author to give a definitive answer but taken to an extreme, if you're right - you could have a 12 base BG is ambush and just have 1 base in the terrain. Hardly plausible?

Pete
So if I have got this right if i place an ambush marker touching the edge of the terrian piece I could when enemy reach it place one element on it and up to eleven in a line in the open as long as they stay the same distance from the enemy BG, is this correct.

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Post by david53 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:26 pm

babyshark wrote:I think it is clear from a reading of the rules that lawrenceg has the correct analysis. I see no need for a clarification, FAQ, et cetera.

Marc
Maybe I got it wrong but his last sentence said he could see how it could be read otherwise.

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Post by lawrenceg » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:43 pm

david53 wrote:
petedalby wrote:But surely the point that you're missing is that the first base you place on the ambush market isn't visible to the enemy - unless they've triggered it of course? The first base must be in terrain which makes it not visible to enemy. So trying to put other bases in the open makes them nearer in visibility terms.

I'll leave it for an author to give a definitive answer but taken to an extreme, if you're right - you could have a 12 base BG is ambush and just have 1 base in the terrain. Hardly plausible?

Pete
So if I have got this right if i place an ambush marker touching the edge of the terrian piece I could when enemy reach it place one element on it and up to eleven in a line in the open as long as they stay the same distance from the enemy BG, is this correct.
Yes, provided they are the same distance (or further) from ALL enemy BG that can see them. This is difficult to achieve in practice, at least it is difficult to achieve in such a way that you get any advantage out of it.
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by lawrenceg » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:46 pm

david53 wrote:
babyshark wrote:I think it is clear from a reading of the rules that lawrenceg has the correct analysis. I see no need for a clarification, FAQ, et cetera.

Marc
Maybe I got it wrong but his last sentence said he could see how it could be read otherwise.
There is no doubt about what p143 means.

The doubt is about whether p142 provides an additional constraint on where you can deploy the bases when the ambush is revealed.
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by david53 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:52 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
david53 wrote:
babyshark wrote:I think it is clear from a reading of the rules that lawrenceg has the correct analysis. I see no need for a clarification, FAQ, et cetera.

Marc
Maybe I got it wrong but his last sentence said he could see how it could be read otherwise.
There is no doubt about what p143 means.

The doubt is about whether p142 provides an additional constraint on where you can deploy the bases when the ambush is revealed.

Thats what I ment can you deploy up to eleven bases in the open.

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