Dragoons

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nikgaukroger
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Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:20 pm

There have been a few comments about dragoons that suggest people are not entirely happy with the way they work at present and that they may well be worth looking at. I'll kick things off with a comment on this from Tim Porter:
It would be nice if Dragoons could be encouraged to skulk in hedgerows and delay the enemy. At the moment they often function as pseudo-LH with sniper rifles.
Thoughts? Ideas?

Over to you lot ... 8)
Nik Gaukroger

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marshalney2000
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Re: Dragoons

Post by marshalney2000 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:25 pm

Can we reduce their evade distance in the open making them more exposed in that environment. At the moment, they get their full distance as an evade despite the fact they would be scrambling back and trying to mount their less than first class nags.
While on the subject can we activate the proposal from a year ago re commanded shot being represented by markers ala regimental guns.
John

kevinj
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Re: Dragoons

Post by kevinj » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:15 pm

My gripe with Dragoons is that they get to do the best of everything, move at full mounted speed and shoot as other musketeers. In reality they should have different Mounted and Dismounted behaviour, but I don't think anyone wants to revert to having 2 sets of figures per dragoon BG. So my thought was that they should be treated as mounted when over 6 MU from enemy (and move as they do now) and dismounted when within 6 MU and move at either LF or MF speed. Personally I prefer the MF option which makes them 1 MU slower in Rough, 1MU faster in Difficult but significantly more vulnerable in Open or Uneven terrain.

Commanded shot is also on our list and will become a separate subject.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:05 pm

The rules on Dragoons partly came about in order that DBR players would not have to rebase their existing figures - plus the way they are based is distinctive and rather nice.

In reality they were mounted infantry and the pseudo-LH behaviour is an issue from an historical representation point of view IMO.

I quite like Kevin's idea and would have them move as MF within 6MU - probably no need to change any other rule for them.
Nik Gaukroger

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donm2
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Re: Dragoons

Post by donm2 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:13 pm

My knowledge of dragoons is only from what I have read about them in the ECW. I cannot think of many cases when dragoons operated in the open on foot. Most battles see them out on a flank holding a piece of terrain to annoy the enemy horse and hopefully inflict casualties on them as they charge past. When in terrain they seem to act as infantry, so maybe they should only move at mounted speeds when outside 6 MU and then act as normal musketeers when within 6 MU. I certainly don't think ECW dragoons acted like skirmishers.

Don

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Re: Dragoons

Post by marshalney2000 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:26 pm

Thanks Don. I think we must be close to agreeing this one. It will certainly kill off the mobile sniper squads they tended to become especially as players supplemented their already good shooting with a few heavy guns adding in to the equation.
John

nikgaukroger
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Re: Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:13 am

donm2 wrote:My knowledge of dragoons is only from what I have read about them in the ECW. I cannot think of many cases when dragoons operated in the open on foot. Most battles see them out on a flank holding a piece of terrain to annoy the enemy horse and hopefully inflict casualties on them as they charge past. When in terrain they seem to act as infantry, so maybe they should only move at mounted speeds when outside 6 MU and then act as normal musketeers when within 6 MU. I certainly don't think ECW dragoons acted like skirmishers.

Don

Matches my reading of them in the ECW Don - hedges lined with dragoons is pretty much an ECW trope :D

Can't recall any European accounts which contradict this either. Additionally I suspect that a lot of the use for dragoons was in operations away from the "big battles" that FoG:R tries to depict.
Nik Gaukroger

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benjones1211
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Re: Dragoons

Post by benjones1211 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:52 am

Would that mean them losing the ability to evade, also the 3MU move to the rear and reface.

So they would become MF that can move at mounted speed outside of 6MU, when inside 6MU, move at 3 MU, no evade, no fancy CMT moves, fire in one rank, can fight in two ranks.
If that's the case they would become very vulnerable unless in terrain that protects them, ie Enclosed fields, obstacles and Villages. Which is historical.

Also if that's the case should they be priced as MF because the moving fast only helps them get around the battlefield, they can't shoot in two ranks, which means less firepower per base width so these two offset.

Or would they still be able to evade but at MF speed and make a move to the rear and reface of 3MU as other lights.

In which case maybe keep the Dragoon price.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by timmy1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:43 pm

I would remove 3rd move from Dragoons when in the open or reduce their move in the open by 1 MU. Other option is to limit them to a 4 MU or 5 MU shooting range when armed with a musket - in the accounts I have read they are not using full length muskets that need a rest.

This does not change their hedgeline behaviour but discourages some of the other stuff.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:18 pm

benjones1211 wrote: Or would they still be able to evade but at MF speed and make a move to the rear and reface of 3MU as other lights.
I would be tempted to go with this option - a bit more interesting than just MF with some extra long initial moves, whilst not being too good.

Thoughts?
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: Dragoons

Post by kevinj » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:43 pm

I think this is the simplest solution. Retain the Light Troops status, but at the same movement speeds as MF when within 6MU of enemy and cavalry/horse outside this. This also means they can continue to deploy in the outer 12MU of the table and operate there without threatened flanks.

There is potentially some awkward anomalies to consider, such as if they are charged by troops who start more than 6MU away, such as by cavalry whose initial target evades and then throw +2MU on the VMD. Also if an enemy who started a turn more than 6MU away but has charged, broken their opponents and then pursued into the dragoons. In those circumstances I think it would be reasonable to retain the mounted move for evading, but if that's thought to be too complex I'd be OK with restricting them to the foot move.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by marshalney2000 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:02 pm

I think the evade move has to be reduced to that of MF. It is the fact that they evade too far at the moment that makes them so potent.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:35 pm

marshalney2000 wrote:I think the evade move has to be reduced to that of MF. It is the fact that they evade too far at the moment that makes them so potent.

This would be my preference. being charged from outside 6MU isn't going to be very common after all.
Nik Gaukroger

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donm2
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Re: Dragoons

Post by donm2 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:03 pm

This would be my preference. being charged from outside 6MU isn't going to be very common after all.
I suspect the charger would also probably be LC who may not cause them too many problems.

Agree about MI movement and evade.

Don

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Re: Dragoons

Post by kevinj » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:15 pm

Again, just making sure we consider things. I'm happy with the idea that they see the enemy coming, dismount to shoot at them and are then surprised when they're on them quicker than they thought they would be.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by Jhykronos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:45 am

Is "evading" in the skirmishy sense even something that dragoons did? Were they really any "lighter" in practice than any other detached shot types of the period? If not, just treat them as mediums who happen to march and rout faster.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:34 am

Jhykronos wrote:Is "evading" in the skirmishy sense even something that dragoons did? Were they really any "lighter" in practice than any other detached shot types of the period? If not, just treat them as mediums who happen to march and rout faster.
I think something akin to it is suggested in some accounts, but it isn't a "thing" in the way it is for skirmishing light cavalry for sure. However, as it would be at MF rate and it makes them a bit different I'm happy to have them evade.
Nik Gaukroger

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Sarmaticus
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Re: Dragoons

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:30 pm

Wagner, "European Weapons & Warfare, 1618-1648" (1979), p.84, shows dragoon horses tied together by the reins that would have made remounting in an emergency nearly impossible.
I don't see any evidence of "shoot and scoot" battlefield behaviour from dragoons in this period. I would see that as the province of Light Horse, including an element of temporary dismounting but below the grain of the game.
The DBR classification may have been influenced by the depiction of dragoons in a plate of Ryszart Brzezinski's, "The Army Of Gustavus Adolphus". I did first draft of the layout for those plates and I never intended the scene of dragoons to represent their behaviour on the battlefield, rather their outpost duties. Sad to say, the shade of, "They Died With Their Boots On", my have passed across my mind in the process.
MF mounted infantry would do it for me.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:45 pm

Sarmaticus wrote:Wagner, "European Weapons & Warfare, 1618-1648" (1979), p.84, shows dragoon horses tied together by the reins that would have made remounting in an emergency nearly impossible.
I don't see any evidence of "shoot and scoot" battlefield behaviour from dragoons in this period. I would see that as the province of Light Horse, including an element of temporary dismounting but below the grain of the game.
The DBR classification may have been influenced by the depiction of dragoons in a plate of Ryszart Brzezinski's, "The Army Of Gustavus Adolphus". I did first draft of the layout for those plates and I never intended the scene of dragoons to represent their behaviour on the battlefield, rather their outpost duties. Sad to say, the shade of, "They Died With Their Boots On", my have passed across my mind in the process.
MF mounted infantry would do it for me.
That depends a lot on what you call 'remounting in an emergency'. For the most part, military tactics involving 'getting the heck out of dodge' are planned and executed well.. It isn't 'oh my god, they are charging us... we're all gonna die... every man for himself'. If they get the timing wrong, then there is an emergency, and they get caught (within the game, rolling a 1 on the evade).

I think dragoons should definitely have an evade move, and if their overall move was reduced to MF, they would be less nimble, and more likely to be caught if players don't use them right.

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Re: Dragoons

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:01 pm

ravenflight wrote: That depends a lot on what you call 'remounting in an emergency'. For the most part, military tactics involving 'getting the heck out of dodge' are planned and executed well.. It isn't 'oh my god, they are charging us... we're all gonna die... every man for himself'. If they get the timing wrong, then there is an emergency, and they get caught (within the game, rolling a 1 on the evade).

I think dragoons should definitely have an evade move, and if their overall move was reduced to MF, they would be less nimble, and more likely to be caught if players don't use them right.
Is there any evidence for evasion by dragoons on the battlefield in this period?

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