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Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:10 am
by nikgaukroger
OK, this is following on from a comment by Don in the Better Armour proposal topic.

It has cropped up a few times over the years and as it has been raised again it only seems right that it gets a proper airing.

The suggestion is made that Determined Horse should have some sort of inherent advantage (usually just at Impact) over Horse - something, presumably, not covered in the PoAs.

Now in all of the work I (and others) did when the rules were first published, I found nothing to support this and haven't since. However, bearing in mind that I may well be biased based on that initial work I'm asking for those who think otherwise to make the case so that it can be considered anew. So please go ahead and explain why Determined Horse (and I guess logically Cavaliers as well, and perhaps Gendarmes?) should get such an Impact advantage.

Over to you ...

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:26 pm
by timmy1
Gensdarmes and DH do in some battles but in those cases the Gensdarmes tended to be Heavy Lance and Superior vs Horse that weren't (and the Gensdarmes tended to be led by a commander) - thinking of the Italian Wars and FWoR. For DH it tends to be Poles vs Russians where there tends to be similar advantages of quality/Impact Mounted/Commanders. The games models the Impact well to me (the issue is not the impact IMO!). I am not aware of any cases where equivalently armed / quality DH roll over Horse.

Cavaliers is slightly different but again there tends to be a quality difference.

In short, I support your contention.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:17 pm
by ravenflight
I don't have rules on hand, and TBH it's been so long I don't remember the rule, but it has always struck me as odd that it's practically impossible to recreate the Late Louis XIV 'capture of X standards in one charge' thing.

Perhaps you would get a more likely result if opponents to 2 dice mounted get a -cohesion test if they lose.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:55 pm
by nikgaukroger
ravenflight wrote:but it has always struck me as odd that it's practically impossible to recreate the Late Louis XIV 'capture of X standards in one charge' thing.

The Maison du Roi led by the Grenadiers a cheval de la Garde with the latter taking 5 colours - sort of boils down to the garde BG breaking a couple of enemy mounted BGs and assuming the nutters got to the colours first.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:52 pm
by Jhykronos
nikgaukroger wrote:The suggestion is made that Determined Horse should have some sort of inherent advantage (usually just at Impact) over Horse - something, presumably, not covered in the PoAs.
I think a lot of this may fall in the old (discarded in modern rules like FOG-R) paradigm of "Trotters" vs "Gallopers", and the idea that Gustav's boys were employing dramatically different tactics than their German opponents.

Most of the legitimate "Gallopers" in the later period seem to be properly rated as Impact Mounted, IMO.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:26 am
by nikgaukroger
Jhykronos wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:The suggestion is made that Determined Horse should have some sort of inherent advantage (usually just at Impact) over Horse - something, presumably, not covered in the PoAs.
I think a lot of this may fall in the old (discarded in modern rules like FOG-R) paradigm of "Trotters" vs "Gallopers", and the idea that Gustav's boys were employing dramatically different tactics than their German opponents.

Most of the legitimate "Gallopers" in the later period seem to be properly rated as Impact Mounted, IMO.

That is certainly my view, however, I want to give those who have suggested an advantage a proper chance to make the case.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:58 am
by ravenflight
nikgaukroger wrote:The Maison du Roi led by the Grenadiers a cheval de la Garde with the latter taking 5 colours - sort of boils down to the garde BG breaking a couple of enemy mounted BGs and assuming the nutters got to the colours first.
That's the one I was thinking about, thank you. Sorry, I was tired and typing on my phone so everything was against me.

Either which way, I think that it's still (nearly) impossible 4 bases of Elite DH to destroy 5 BG's of Average DH... especially in one charge (which I understand is what happened).

It would be more able (again, IMHO) to be gained if the winning DH gave the enemy a -1 modifier in the cohesion test so adding the DH and Cavaliers to the "Any troops testing for having lost impact phase even partially against lancers, impact mounted, Determined Horse, Cavaliers, Gendarmes or Salvo foot**"

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:21 pm
by nikgaukroger
ravenflight wrote: Either which way, I think that it's still (nearly) impossible 4 bases of Elite DH to destroy 5 BG's of Average DH... especially in one charge (which I understand is what happened).

No idea why you think it would need to break 5 enemy BGs.

With the caveat that there is no specifically defined scale a mounted BG of the time we are talking about will be comprised of at least 4, and probably more, troops each of which will have a colour - so for the example we are on about a couple of enemy BGs broken will plausibly give the required captures and it could well be just a single BG :shock:

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:56 pm
by ravenflight
nikgaukroger wrote:
ravenflight wrote: Either which way, I think that it's still (nearly) impossible 4 bases of Elite DH to destroy 5 BG's of Average DH... especially in one charge (which I understand is what happened).

No idea why you think it would need to break 5 enemy BGs.

With the caveat that there is no specifically defined scale a mounted BG of the time we are talking about will be comprised of at least 4, and probably more, troops each of which will have a colour - so for the example we are on about a couple of enemy BGs broken will plausibly give the required captures and it could well be just a single BG :shock:
Well, for starters, because they made a big deal of it. In practically EVERY game of FoG:R a bg of mounted is broken. If that signified '4' then the Grenadiers a Cheval et al breaking a BG wouldn't have been noteworthy.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:07 pm
by nikgaukroger
ravenflight wrote: Well, for starters, because they made a big deal of it. In practically EVERY game of FoG:R a bg of mounted is broken. If that signified '4' then the Grenadiers a Cheval et al breaking a BG wouldn't have been noteworthy.
The noteworthy thing was that the single company of grenadiers at the head of the maison du roi (i.e. a minority) captured a significant number of colours - not that they won.

In relation to the subject in hand IMO the thing that this might indicate is that this Elite BG should perhaps be Impact Mounted and says nothing about DH in general.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:54 pm
by ravenflight
nikgaukroger wrote:
ravenflight wrote: Well, for starters, because they made a big deal of it. In practically EVERY game of FoG:R a bg of mounted is broken. If that signified '4' then the Grenadiers a Cheval et al breaking a BG wouldn't have been noteworthy.
The noteworthy thing was that the single company of grenadiers at the head of the maison du roi (i.e. a minority) captured a significant number of colours - not that they won.

In relation to the subject in hand IMO the thing that this might indicate is that this Elite BG should perhaps be Impact Mounted and says nothing about DH in general.
Whatever.

You asked about Determined Horse at Impact. You're clearly not really interested in making any changes to the rules. So why raise it?

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:07 pm
by nikgaukroger
Whilst I am not convinced of a case for a change here I believe that it has been mentioned enough times over the years to warrant the opportunity for those who think there should be to make their case.

So far the only thing offered is about a single unit (your contribution) which whilst relevant to specific BG in one list is not, IMO, enough to base a case for a whole troop category on.

I was rather hoping that those who had raised this in relation to DH against cuirassiers would post - still time 8)

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:21 pm
by timmy1
Nik

I don't know if you will get a candidate willing to put his head above the parapet on DH vs Curr but...

The circumstance mentioned CAN happen in the rules - it is just VERY unlikely, hence why it was talked about so much. At Britcon some years back Mr Madaxeman took L XIV Froggies against my Swedes. He had two commanders and 2 BG of mounted on table (the 3rd Commander and the 3rd BG were on a flank march - last heard of invading Ruritania) - one of the BG was fragged after its commander was killed. The sole remaining Commander joined them some hours later, and rallied them. They broke the BG in front of them (Hakkapeliitta!), charged a Carbine Armed Horse BG and broke that, and then broke a BG of German Mercs and capture the guns they were guarding. One BG scored 10 AP all on it's own from Fragged. Yes Tim was lucky but the rules do allow the once in a 200 year event today.

Not for those of a nervious disposition...

[url]http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/Britcon_2011_1.php[/url]

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:59 pm
by madaxeman
The issue, if I remember correctly, was as much that there is very little reason for Det Horse to deploy wide and shallow currently. If they hit multiple Horse opponents in a single rank they will take enough hits, even if winning, to probably lose a base, then they lose by attrition pretty quickly.

The most frequently mooted suggestion was to allow them a 1-die per base overlap at contact. This would be a tiny game effect but would give some reason to go in 3 or 4 wide. Which is presumably what we want to see happen

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:14 pm
by timmy1
Once again I find myself agreeing with Tim.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:39 pm
by Jhykronos
madaxeman wrote:The issue, if I remember correctly, was as much that there is very little reason for Det Horse to deploy wide and shallow currently. If they hit multiple Horse opponents in a single rank they will take enough hits, even if winning, to probably lose a base, then they lose by attrition pretty quickly.

The most frequently mooted suggestion was to allow them a 1-die per base overlap at contact. This would be a tiny game effect but would give some reason to go in 3 or 4 wide. Which is presumably what we want to see happen
Stupid message board ate my response.

Anyway, my gist was:

1. How does the proposal really mitigate the issue with deploying wide? Against 2 units of horse, the DH aren't going to have an overlap anyway, and against anything smaller they are already going to get the overlap benefit in melee.
2. I'm not sure I'm convinced that it's a good idea to have DH incentivized to be fighting by themselves against twice as many horse stands anyway.

My own group's experience with the two armies we have that regularly deploy DH (my Poles, and another player's 30YW French) is that the Determined Horse see action with the whole range of frontages: 2, 3, or 4 stands. At the start of battles, my Hussars are typically deployed 3 wide and the French player usually starts his units 2 wide. But often as not they have expanded or contracted by the time they close. It is a useful capability (not nearly as useful as the old point cost would indicate, but useful).

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 pm
by nikgaukroger
The issue of deploying wide is a rather unfortunate one inherent in FoG :(

I have sometimes wondered if DH BGs should not in fact be 2s not 4s because of it :shock: This is not a suggestion BTW.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:09 pm
by Jhykronos
nikgaukroger wrote:The issue of deploying wide is a rather unfortunate one inherent in FoG :(

I have sometimes wondered if DH BGs should not in fact be 2s not 4s because of it :shock:
Heh, now there's a can of worms for numbers of battlegroups and the Renaissance equivalent of the Dominate swarm.

But my Bronze-Age chariotiers would agree with this sentiment.

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:14 pm
by timmy1
Later Swedes - 10 BG of DH along with Salvo/RG foot... preferably at 900 Points...

Re: Determined Horse at Impact

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:27 pm
by timmy1
NOT saying it is good history but a way for us to emulate historical behaviour and avoid the 2-deep syndrome for DH is perhaps to say DH 1 rank deep get +1 to the death roll?