Points Values - the whole damn lot

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timmy1
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by timmy1 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:57 am

Missed that. Thanks

davids
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by davids » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:22 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Cavalry are seen as over-priced currently so they were always going to get cheaper.

What we need to know is whether you think the suggested new values are OK, or too low?
I think cavalry are overpriced but not 25% overpriced for superior, armoured with bow. I've used them a lot, and while I think they aren't worth 16, at 12 I would say they are a bargain, after all they can shoot and run. I would have been happier to give them a proper move back and turn around, as in FOGAM v2.

I prefer dropping a point on the mounted sword, but keeping the base cavalry and bow cost the same (except for those with only melee weapons, they need a discount) and giving the cavalry a better movement option, but it seems that hasn't been floated as a change.

For an army like Tatar, which is predominantly mounted with bow and sword, this gives them effectively an extra 10+% in points. A late European army with pistol/pistol horse and pike/shot hasn't changed points (I think?), so that would be like playing 800 points vs 900 or so. Are Tatars etc so bad? (This is not a rhetorical question, I've never used them in FOGR). If superior armoured cavalry cost 12 (from 16), superior unarmoured cavalry cost 10 (from 13) and superior light horse cost 10 (from 12) I would definitely give it a run.

A free bow* makes Tupi and North American armies go from 7 to 6. That becomes a pretty big army. A free weapon for a whole army seems a bit too good.

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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by kevinj » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:10 am

Thank you for your thoughts David.

In the original points system Cavalry were charged a 2 point premium for the ability to evade. This was especially poor value for those that can't. They already have the disadvantage of being less resilient to firearm shooting.
The Tatars are competitive against their historical opponents, who also mostly have similar cavalry options. One of the things that currently gives them an edge is their Dragoons, who probably won't be so effective in future. They're viable in the hands of a good player, but then so are most other armies. They will generally struggle against competently played 17th Century Western European armies.

We've suggested reducing the cost of mounted Bow to keep it in line with Carbine.

Bow* may be worth half a point at best. It's certainly nowhere near as good as Bow which also costs 1 point. South American armies are generally only competitive against each other. The Tupi are especially pants. Under current points an army comes in around 13 BGs. They may get another 1/2 with free Bow* but I can't see them being any more viable outside of a South American theme.

We have looked at the changes made in FoG AM v2 but we've been looking to keep the proposed changes to FoG R to those which resolve the perceived issues. There are a number of things that we could have added but we're trying to keep it focussed.

As for the points changes, we can only really nail those down once the other changes are finalised. Is suspect we may have pitched the new base levels for mounted slightly low but nothing is set in concrete (or PDF) yet.

davids
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by davids » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:09 am

Thanks for the reply, I can see why the individual points are reduced, eg bow to match carbine, but I'm just a bit concerned that when they are all added together it is quite a big reduction. Still, if it gets more variety in the game I guess it's ok, playing in Australia, where the game is only barely hanging on in a competitive sense (the annual tournament in Canberra didn't this year run for lack of numbers, the main Sydney one had 8 players last year) a lot of these issues haven't really come up (not that I've heard anyway).

nikgaukroger
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:39 am

Folks we could really do with some more feedback on this please. It is quite important :D
Nik Gaukroger

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benjones1211
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by benjones1211 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:43 pm

First some nit picking
You have commanded shot as being +1 pt (each Shot base in BG with pikeman, or if commanded shot) but as they don't exist as individual bases this is no longer needed.

Secondly, most of that looks OK, although I would go with the

Impact Mtd 3
Heavy Lance, Pistol 2
Lt Lance 1

I think even Lt Lance should cost as it can give bonus's when charging and even if it doesn't there is a -ct if lose to them.

I must admit I have always thought foot bow was underpriced at 1 and should be 2, firefights between them and musket may have the edge to musket but not by much

Commanded shot for DH/Cavaliers looks a bit excessive at 50% more than for Horse, maybe 25% increase would be enough ie 18 15 11 9

Bw* is so bad that 0 is fine for it mtd or foot.

Overall this is going to make Non Western, non TYW armies a reasonable amount bigger and some TYW armies a little bigger (Swedes DH and armies with HA Cuirs)

Personally I would get rid of the 4pts for Swedish Brigades.
Finally I would reduce the cost of Musket for LF to 2 or possibly 1, as 3 means for the shooting they can do they are awfully overpriced as they are 1 per 2 or 1 per 3

hazelbark
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by hazelbark » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:06 pm

Given the proposed armor rule, I can't imagine armor costing more than 1 in any circumstances.

spedders
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by spedders » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:21 pm

I think I prefer the 3/2/1 option on the mtd weapons. I do agree with Ben that I would ditch the +4 for Swedish brigades. I have never understood what you are paying for, you pay for the extra pike base anyway and lost counting as armoured for long range.

Happy with other changes.

ravenflight
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:24 am

(deleted)
Last edited by ravenflight on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nikgaukroger
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:57 am

ravenflight wrote: As only Cavalry and Lighthorse will be given Lt Lance

Apart from the significant numbers of Horse with Light Lance that is :wink:
Nik Gaukroger

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ravenflight
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:24 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
ravenflight wrote: As only Cavalry and Lighthorse will be given Lt Lance

Apart from the significant numbers of Horse with Light Lance that is :wink:
As I said, I don't know the lists well enough. I didn't think many horse had lance.

DavidT
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by DavidT » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:59 pm

I played a Border Reivers army the other night. He had 10 mounted BGs with light lance :!:

nikgaukroger
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:17 pm

DavidT wrote:I played a Border Reivers army the other night. He had 10 mounted BGs with light lance :!:

But they wouldn't be horse though.

Most of the Horse with Light Lance are demi-lancer types - although there is a BG of Determined Horse with them in Duty & Glory IIRC :shock:
Nik Gaukroger

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davids
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by davids » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:00 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
DavidT wrote:I played a Border Reivers army the other night. He had 10 mounted BGs with light lance :!:

But they wouldn't be horse though.

Most of the Horse with Light Lance are demi-lancer types - although there is a BG of Determined Horse with them in Duty & Glory IIRC :shock:
Later Russian and Ethiopian can both have a BG of determined horse with light lance.

benjones1211
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by benjones1211 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:30 am

All the ECW Scottish lists (Royalist, Covenanter) can have a number of Horse with Light Lance (not just Light Horse), not looked up how early/late after that they go. Seems the Scots liked to use long pointed things after most other countries have got rid of them, just behind the times, or useful for instant sheep BBQ. :)

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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by benjones1211 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:38 am

Just put together a Scots Royalist list for playtesting some of the new rules, used new points (except Bw* is 0, as Bob thought it would help the Scots Royalist cause too much), found Moss Troopers reduced from 10 to 8 LH, Pistol, Lt Lance, Sword, therefore with the new Dragoon and Artillery rules decided to take rather than Dragoons (of which I can have 3). Also to take a second Horse unit due to points constraints went with Horse, Lt Lance, Sword as cheaper than Horse Pistol,No Impact ,Pistol,. (wouldn't have needed to do that if Bw* was 0)

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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:35 am

More thoughts on points would be useful if you have any :D
Nik Gaukroger

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timmy1
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by timmy1 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:13 pm

We are waiting for you to finalise the proposal and then criticize the hell out of it and bemoan it's blatant unfairness to <insert name of favourite army / troop type>

DavidT
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by DavidT » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:51 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:More thoughts on points would be useful if you have any :D
I think that Superior Armoured P/P Determined Horse at 17 points (compared to 21) are a bit too cheap and Average Armoured P/P determine Horse at 14 points (compared to 15) are still too expensive. 18 and 13 might be better or even a difference of 4 points.

However, some consideration would then need to be given to the other points costs, possibly increasing Superior/Elite two dice/base mounted by 1 point and decreasing Average/Poor two dice/base mounted by 1 point.

As I have said previously, I think that light lances should be 1 point with impact pistol/heavy lance 2 points and impact mounted 3 points. This, however, changes the whole balance of the points so some adjustment may be needed to base points costs as Average Armoured, P/P Horse would then cost 11 points, compared to the current 10 and this wouldn't be good.

Vespasian28
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Re: Points Values - the whole damn lot

Post by Vespasian28 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:39 pm

Said this before but I think you need to close the gap in points between Sup and Avg and Poor. To keep this simple the foot points have not changed from originally published yet Elites retain the advantages of old whereas Superiors keep re-rolls but the autobreak difference is either non-existent or marginal depending on the size of BG.
Just looking at the foot the points difference between Elite and Superiors is 2.
Yet the difference between Superior and Average is 3 for essentially just a re-roll as the better autobreak only kicks in for BG of 12 or more.
I think that Superior Armoured P/P Determined Horse at 17 points (compared to 21) are a bit too cheap and Average Armoured P/P determine Horse at 14 points (compared to 15) are still too expensive. 18 and 13 might be better or even a difference of 4 points.
With the above example the only difference is a re-roll now yet the points difference is 3 with a suggested 4-5. Is a re-roll really worth that? And why would a mounted re-roll be more expensive than a foot one?

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