Captured unit tier list - AO based

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Scrapulous
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
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Re: Captured unit tier list - AO based

Post by Scrapulous »

We agree that this is a way to get double duty from a fighter and from a strong hero, which is usually a win. Finding units that can do multiple things well and adding heroes that let them act twice is huge fun and a big force multiplier - I share your love for the KV-2, for instance; it just does so much work. But I haven't been able to fall in love with the hard attack of the Hurricane, even when I reinforced it with heroes.
Edmon wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:07 pm
Scrapulous wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:40 pm The Hurricane's soft attack stat is nothing special: 3. That's equal to the Bf109E, F, and G. It's the hard attack stat that is higher. It's not any better than your other fighters are at taking out artillery or infantry, for instance.
Well that really depends in that infantry or artillery is motorized and/or moving around in a hard transport.
Do you often find the AI in trucks or halftracks? It's pretty rare, in my experience. Maybe you're better at intercepting the AI on the move than I am, which I think is a real possibility - I think you're certainly a better player than I am just based on the challenges you play with that I don't. The Air Defense of LandTransports of this period (all periods for most factions) ranges from 0 to 2, so even fighters with Hard Attack of 1 will hurt them, but you're of course right that a Hurricane hitting them with a Hard Attack of 6 will do more damage.
Edmon wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:07 pm 11 hard is a really important value to reach, because it's +5 above the 6 defence of most hard units in 1939. Additionally, the very hard units and 1940 units, like the Char B1 have 10 defence, so it is just barely above those too. Meaning that most hits are going to be kills.
Yes, 1939 tanks are pretty afraid of that Hurricane. Of course, we don't get Hurricanes until the 11th scenario of 1940, nor Heinrich Bar until the 8th scenario, so 1939 is probably safe from the monster you've made :) 6 Air Defense is still prominent into 1941, though, because the Soviet Union relies heavily on older tanks during that year, so the Edmon Hurricane will see opportunities for a while.

I'm curious, though, because you mention the 10 defense: do you not bring tactical bombers? If you do, what other work are they doing when you see Char B1s or Matilda IIs? To my mind there's usually no higher priority for a tac bomber than to smash the biggest tank available. I'd rather have a tac bomber with an effective Hard Attack of 17 hit that heavy tank than a fighter with an effective Hard Attack of 11.
Edmon wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:07 pm This gives you huge flexibility for a fighter, as fighters are usually wasted slots after 4-8 turns, when the enemy airforce is mostly or entirely defeated. It is perfect for BAR, because his double attack is otherwise wasted once the enemy airforce is defeated. You effectively gain another tactical and one better able to defend itself and with superior range.
I don't usually have trouble finding work for fighters, so this might be the root of our difference. Like you mentioned, they're all very good at killing artillery, and I usually have one or two Entrenchment Killer heroes sitting around that can go on a fighter so that the fighter can help tear down fortifications when there's no air superiority work to be done and no artillery targets available. I also usually have 3 tactical bombers deployed, so enemy heavy tanks aren't worried about my Hurricane. It is good at doing attrition damage to light tanks.

Another aspect of my play that might account for my lower regard for the Hurricane's Hard Attack advantage is that I tend to deploy cheap AA guns, so I don't have much need for the supporting fire function of my fighters. That frees me up to bring strong fighter-bombers instead. The Beaufighter is my favorite. It has a small air attack deficit compared to dedicated fighters, but I use it to finish off enemy wings that have been injured by my air superiority fighters or AA units, where the slightly lower air attack value doesn't hurt. I actually moved a Double Attack hero from a fighter wing to the Beaufighter as soon as I could for the same reason you like Bar on a Hurricane: you have double air attack while the air war is hot, and double ground attack afterwards. But the Beaufighter I think responds better to the hero investments than the Hurricane does, because it can do meaningful damage to infantry. Of course, Bar can't go on a Beaufighter (Rudel can, though, in '41, which is a great way to get Rudel to do double duty as an air superiority hero). And if you have enough heroes, you could certainly load up both a Hurricane and a Beaufighter and have two units that are strong against air and ground targets. I think my main problem with the Hurricane is just that it's competing with other aircraft I've deployed that do each job it can do as well or better.

Code: Select all

name            S Att   H Att   A Att   N Att   G Def   A Def   C Def   Init    Spot    Rng     Move
HurricaneMkIIC  3       4       12      1       8       6       0       3       2       0       120
SpitfireMkII    3       1       11      1       8       9       0       6       2       0       120
Bf109F          3       1       11      1       8       7       0       7       2       0       120

Bf110D          6       5       6       6       4       7       0       2       2       0       150
BeaufighterMkIF 6       5       10      10      7       6       0       2       2       0       160
Incidentally, I notice the Hurricane doesn't have superior range. Could it be the DeWoitine 520 in that you're thinking of? It has a range of 14 vs. the midwar fighter standard of 12. The Beaufighter, on the other hand, has a massive range of 16. I love that thing.
Edmon
Slitherine
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Re: Captured unit tier list - AO based

Post by Edmon »

In terms of range, I was thinking of the Ju 87B which I was still using when I first got the Hurricane, which has 11 range. The Hurricane has the same range as the JU 87R though, so in terms of range it enjoys the same range as any (dedicated) tactical you have access to.

So, if you don't value the Hurricane that's fine. There are lots of ways to play the game of course.

To me, it is the best fighter in the game for a long time.

1) It is absolutely superior to other fighters in air to air combat, if you add a first strike hero. It has superior air to air attack which is all that matters in a first strike situation.
2) It also absolutely superior if you use recon planes and/or escort other planes with it. Once again, only your air attack value matters here.
3) It can have the same versus hard stats as a tactical and the same range. It is a way to turn BAR into a tactical bomber hero and gain a unit that is better than the best fighter and as good as the best tactical, all in one unit.
4) It has no disadvantages save that, if the enemy shoots first it will be murdered. Something you can mitigate with tactics or heroes, easily.

On a side note, the Beaufighter is a really nice tactical, but it is a tactical. So it can't provide fighter support to other aircraft.

If you overstrength a Hurricane to 14 and put readiness on it, no 10 strength aircraft in any current DLC will dare to attack it, as they will be insta-gibbed.
VirgilInTheSKY
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
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Re: Captured unit tier list - AO based

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

Edmon wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:09 pm On a side note, the Beaufighter is a really nice tactical, but it is a tactical. So it can't provide fighter support to other aircraft.
But this also makes it able to recieve fighter support when attacked :)
wodavis1
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
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Re: Captured unit tier list - AO based

Post by wodavis1 »

Edmon wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:09 pm In terms of range, I was thinking of the Ju 87B which I was still using when I first got the Hurricane, which has 11 range. The Hurricane has the same range as the JU 87R though, so in terms of range it enjoys the same range as any (dedicated) tactical you have access to.

So, if you don't value the Hurricane that's fine. There are lots of ways to play the game of course.

To me, it is the best fighter in the game for a long time.

1) It is absolutely superior to other fighters in air to air combat, if you add a first strike hero. It has superior air to air attack which is all that matters in a first strike situation.
2) It also absolutely superior if you use recon planes and/or escort other planes with it. Once again, only your air attack value matters here.
3) It can have the same versus hard stats as a tactical and the same range. It is a way to turn BAR into a tactical bomber hero and gain a unit that is better than the best fighter and as good as the best tactical, all in one unit.
4) It has no disadvantages save that, if the enemy shoots first it will be murdered. Something you can mitigate with tactics or heroes, easily.

On a side note, the Beaufighter is a really nice tactical, but it is a tactical. So it can't provide fighter support to other aircraft.

If you overstrength a Hurricane to 14 and put readiness on it, no 10 strength aircraft in any current DLC will dare to attack it, as they will be insta-gibbed.
Thanks for the tip, Edmon. This is the type of info that I look for in the forums, helpful tips that I hadn't thought of yet.
VirgilInTheSKY
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
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Re: Captured unit tier list - AO based

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

You have forgotten to write score for the 122mm M1938 in AO 1939 part, I think.
And also the Bf 109G from exchange in AO 1941, though I know that one can be...well not that good considering the price.
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