AO1942??

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VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: AO1942??

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:49 pm

terminator wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
Little information on this official screenshot AO 1942. What battle ? Winterstorm ? See anything new in this picture ?


screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg
It is Rzhev 1942 in the first screenshot, note the position of Wurfrahmen and surrounding terrain. Maybe not the same time in the same turn.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Retributarr » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:38 am

Bee1976 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 am
Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:29 am
It would be a big risk and would upset a lot of people, but I think it would be a big and innovative departure.
Well, the chances are really small that they leave the historical path completly in the grand campain. Its a ww2 game so it would be quite normal that we get that historical route. I hope for 2 paralel dlcs per year on the eastern front now. One histrocial and 1 ahistorical. So ppl could decide what they want to play. And Slitherine can monitor what route is more popular.
But im not sure if that is a realistic hope. Development costs,
And ppl wait for allied corps, soviet corps, africa corps aswell.

For my part, i dislike the "play your best game, but you will recieve a defeat at the end" picture.
But i love panzercorps, so i will buys the dlcs (all of them...no matter what they release), but if they let me choose i would prefer a pure ahistorical dlc series in the future or paralel on top of the histroical dlc route. And i would enjoy this for any other xCorps aswell. Hell, i would even play a SovietCorps vs Aliens after germany is defeated ( :oops: :mrgreen: )
WWII was not a guaranteed win or lose for either side... too many unforeseen variables... [Such as the coldest winter in 100 years during the "Assault on Moscau"… or the Stormiest English-Channel in the longest time since it was last endured] ...interceded at various moments in time... that either "incrementally" or "decidedly" changed the vectored direction of where the determination of the next 'step-option-choice-decision' would then be determined.

In the mentioning of [...the coldest winter in 100 years during the "Assault on Moscau"]… it seems that the Germans were quite unfamiliar with the making of winter-lubricants for extreme cold temperature conditions... such that... on the event of the 'Assault on MOSCAU'... the German Tanks were using 'Summer Oil Lubricants'... Thus!!!... their Tank-Engines had froze-up... they had 'Frozen-Oil' in them... and they couldn't be started up for operations. These Tanks could still have manual operation of their turrets by their crews... so they would still be able to fire projectiles at enemy vehicles that came into range... but that is all that they could do!... they were sitting ducks!. I believe that at least a 1000-Tanks were having this issue.

Now!... to change history... in this example... had the Germans had access to 'Winter-Lubricants'... the battle for 'MOSCAU' may have very well have gone quite differently. These small variances that took place during WWII very much decided which way the wind was going to blow!.

So!... to have Germany be successful in their war with Russia... is not entirely unreasonable.
---------------------------------------Forgotten Mentionables:---------------------------------------------------
Had the 'Winter-Temperatures' have been milder... say... -10 to -15 °C instead of -30 to 40 °C then there may not have been a 'Frozen-Tank-Problem'... and the Germans could have instead have then been successful.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by brumleek » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:00 am

Greetings gentlemen.

My feelings about historical / non-historical paths are:
- Since WW2 in Europe offered countless battles and encounters, there is always plenty of more or less known material to choose from without the need to make things up. But I have to say I really enjoy small non-historical digressions (like an invasion to the UK) with a quick return to the historical path. It gives me a "what if" vibe without compromising my WW2 in Europe experience.
- As WW2 history has been my interest for decades now, I'll always prefer the current state of AO as opposed to huge non-historical campaigns. Also, many people in Europe playing this game live near famous WW2 battlegrounds and PC2 gives them the opportunity to touch and to some extent experience historical events in a much more pleasant way, than 80 years ago.
- I really enjoy your discussion above about a possible German victory. You had to put a lot of thought and effort into it. For me, it is quite a moral dilemma (since I live in the Czech Republic) and I have to say I will definitely survive without the German total victory campaign. But I also have no intention to make a direct connection between PC2 game and all the filth and ugliness that happened during WW2. I would be simply unfair. So if by any chance such a campaign will come out I will buy and I will play it.

What future development would be interesting for me:
- Finish AO DLC set as a historical path with small non-historical branches.
- Give us a similar DLC set for Red Army. God knows it deserves it.
- Give us a similar DLC set for Western Allies.
- Figure out new heroes tailored to specific nations.
- Figure out new heroes with positive AND negative traits at the same time. Since certain hero combinations can be utterly devastating and game-breaking, let us work around negative traits while enjoying positive.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Vorskl » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:59 pm

brumleek wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:00 am
Greetings gentlemen.

My feelings about historical / non-historical paths are:
- Since WW2 in Europe offered countless battles and encounters, there is always plenty of more or less known material to choose from without the need to make things up. But I have to say I really enjoy small non-historical digressions (like an invasion to the UK) with a quick return to the historical path. It gives me a "what if" vibe without compromising my WW2 in Europe experience.
- As WW2 history has been my interest for decades now, I'll always prefer the current state of AO as opposed to huge non-historical campaigns. Also, many people in Europe playing this game live near famous WW2 battlegrounds and PC2 gives them the opportunity to touch and to some extent experience historical events in a much more pleasant way, than 80 years ago.
- I really enjoy your discussion above about a possible German victory. You had to put a lot of thought and effort into it. For me, it is quite a moral dilemma (since I live in the Czech Republic) and I have to say I will definitely survive without the German total victory campaign. But I also have no intention to make a direct connection between PC2 game and all the filth and ugliness that happened during WW2. I would be simply unfair. So if by any chance such a campaign will come out I will buy and I will play it.

What future development would be interesting for me:
- Finish AO DLC set as a historical path with small non-historical branches.
- Give us a similar DLC set for Red Army. God knows it deserves it.
- Give us a similar DLC set for Western Allies.
- Figure out new heroes tailored to specific nations.
- Figure out new heroes with positive AND negative traits at the same time. Since certain hero combinations can be utterly devastating and game-breaking, let us work around negative traits while enjoying positive.
I like your way of thinking. IMHO any significantly ahistorical path will turn this game into Fantasy General instead of more a less history-based war game.
The thing is that WWII had A LOT of content by its own to make plenty of interesting and challenging DLCs. However, the pop-history and attention of many players fixated on Brest, D-day, Sedan, Stalingrad, Kursk, completely ignoring other campaigns. As an example: the North Africa campaign was spectacular, but Germans deployed there less own forces than in Norway, not to mention ANY part of the Eastern Front.
I absolutely support that Finland deserves a DLC (could be 1939-44) + 3-5 Soviet DLCs + maybe experiment with a Navy DLC

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Retributarr » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:59 pm
brumleek wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:00 am
Greetings gentlemen.

My feelings about historical / non-historical paths are:
- Since WW2 in Europe offered countless battles and encounters, there is always plenty of more or less known material to choose from without the need to make things up.
I like your way of thinking. IMHO any significantly ahistorical path will turn this game into Fantasy General instead of more a less history-based war game.
This discussion is about the possibility of having firstly a 'True' non-divergent historical play by play... but!... at the same time others... including myself would someday like to see or experience an alternative set of situations that are not 'Fantasy'... but that could very well have easily have taken place... but didn't!.

As in the case of the assault on Moscow... what if a regular winter had taken place instead of the most severest winter in 100 years?... now!... would that have made any difference?... this is not a 'Fantasy-Hypothetical'... and it could easily have just been an alternative situation.

That goes for a whole host of other situations as well!. So some of us are hoping that one-day... we can have both the " historical /and... non-historical paths" [Two entirely separate Games]... based on realities... based on what could have alternately really have taken place... not based on 'Fantasy'... just to see or experience what outcome it would or could have delivered.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Vorskl » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:11 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm
As in the case of the assault on Moscow... what if a regular winter had taken place instead of the most severest winter in 100 years?... now!... would that have made any difference?... this is not a 'Fantasy-Hypothetical'... and it could easily have just been an alternative situation.

That goes for a whole host of other situations as well!. So some of us are hoping that one-day... we can have both the " historical /and... non-historical paths" [Two entirely separate Games]... based on realities... based on what could have alternately really have taken place... not based on 'Fantasy'... just to see or experience what outcome it would or could have delivered.
Moscow - Nothing would change significantly. You forget that weather impacts BOTH players. Also, the frost actually helped turn mud roads into smth asphalt-like, hence easing supply issues. But the frost would not solve the issue of a lack of supplies and forces in German divisions as there were none in the pipeline from the motherland. Neither frost would affect Soviet perm mobilization pipeline initiated in June (!) and which allowed to consistently 'print' new visions.
In the battle of Moscow there were no accidental factors that would magically turn the war around.

IMHO true 'what-if' events are these where it's a stupid accident, luck or a slight time advantage made the difference:
- 1941 North West Ukraine - a Soviet infantry division was only two hours late to capture Dubno and hence block the Panzer group moving onto Kiev
- 1942 Crimean offence of Mannstein - 2 days BEFORE Soviet planned; a catastrophic offense
- 1942 Kharkov - Soviet started its attack a few days BEFORE germans wanted; if the other way around, it could have been much better for Soviet
- 1942 Luban offense - Soviet started its attack a few days BEFORE germans; if the other way around, it could have been much worse for Soviet
these are pure luck / timing events

as for what-ifs:
1941 - 2nd Pz Gruppe moves onto Moscow and skips Kiev. Probably, will get a powerful blow into its southern flank from Kirponos
1942 - No Kharkov disaster = No Blau (or different) = a totally different Stalingrad (if any)
etc etc - how do you plan for these? As any of them shift the game totally into a Wonderland

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Retributarr » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:37 pm

Vorskl wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:11 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm
As in the case of the assault on Moscow... what if a regular winter had taken place instead of the most severest winter in 100 years?... now!... would that have made any difference?...
Moscow - Nothing would change significantly. You forget that weather impacts BOTH players.
IMHO true 'what-if' events are these where it's a stupid accident, luck or a slight time advantage made the difference:

as for what-ifs:
1941 - 2nd Pz Gruppe moves onto Moscow and skips Kiev. Probably, will get a powerful blow into its southern flank from Kirponos
1942 - No Kharkov disaster = No Blau (or different) = a totally different Stalingrad (if any)
etc etc - how do you plan for these? As any of them shift the game totally into a Wonderland
You have mentioned quite a list of 'What-If's", those 'what-ifs'... would definitely have made some impact on the furtherance of events.

"how do you plan for these? As any of them shift the game totally into a Wonderland"… True!...True!... you can't 'plan for these'... there are too-many 'Permutations and Combinations' of outcomes that would make the Game an 'Insane Asylum'.

The only remedy or calibrated fix that I can come up with … is to only concentrate on the most impactful event changing situations... such as for example... what if the German's had planned and prepared better for an all out effort to take the 'Caucasus Oil-Fields' [Instead of MOSCOW] with more forces, fuel and an earlier start?. If that effort was successful... then the 'Russian-Army'... would have then been effectively 'Neutered'... they would now be a 2nd or 3rd-rate force to deal with... now being... much less effective!.

Another possible example... could be the axis take-over of 'Malta'... which then would have been an overwhelming 'Game-Changer' for 'Erwin Rommel' in North-Africa!. Major-Major events such as these could have had an altering devastating outcome on further proceedings. We can't let the much lesser impactful confrontations... have the major-sway in the outcome of the conflict!.

WalterTFD
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Re: AO1942??

Post by WalterTFD » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm

I dunno, I think people are fixating a bit much on this, and it's a distinction without a difference.

Like, we've already had a divergence in AO, the England Invasion path. It gave people who took it a few extra missions and a promise of a special unit down the line.

The multiple endings will either be roughly similar, or fork onto multiple DLCs. (Assuming you agree that there's no chance the 43 DLC releases with 34 missions, 17 for each possible outcome).

If it is similar, then it's fine, right? None of us quit over the England invasion, we won't quit over BetterRussia path diversion. Really hardcore history purists can do like they did in England, and just skip the fork.

If it is multiple paths, that's fine too, right? Historical buffs will buy the history path, alt history crowd will buy the other, and anyone who likes the game enough to be posting on its message boards will get both.

Nothing worth griping over here.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Scrapulous » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm

terminator wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
Little information on this official screenshot AO 1942. What battle ? Winterstorm ? See anything new in this picture ?


screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg
It looks like Soviet aircraft have developed the ability to fly while it's snowing.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Bee1976 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:49 pm

WalterTFD wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm


If it is multiple paths, that's fine too, right? Historical buffs will buy the history path, alt history crowd will buy the other, and anyone who likes the game enough to be posting on its message boards will get both.

Nothing worth griping over here.
Well, my postings here werent meant as griping. I will buy, play and enjoy everything they release. But i would love multiple paths/dlcs, because that england scenarios felt "wrong", but i play them every new playthrough again. ;)

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Retributarr » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:37 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:37 pm
Vorskl wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:11 pm
Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:35 pm
As in the case of the assault on Moscow... what if a regular winter had taken place instead of the most severest winter in 100 years?... now!... would that have made any difference?...
Moscow - Nothing would change significantly. You forget that weather impacts BOTH players. NEW!!!
[Ret: I 'Specifically mentioned Oil freezing up in German Tanks because as far as I know... the Russians had already been dealing with these temperatures for a very long time... and had lubricants that would still function effectively in very cold temperatures... such as the Oil not freezing in their Tanks!.] [Luck was not a deciding factor in this particular case!.]
IMHO true 'what-if' events are these where it's a stupid accident, luck or a slight time advantage made the difference:

as for what-ifs:
1941 - 2nd Pz Gruppe moves onto Moscow and skips Kiev. Probably, will get a powerful blow into its southern flank from Kirponos
1942 - No Kharkov disaster = No Blau (or different) = a totally different Stalingrad (if any)
etc etc - how do you plan for these? As any of them shift the game totally into a Wonderland
You have mentioned quite a list of 'What-If's", those 'what-ifs'... would definitely have made some impact on the furtherance of events.

"how do you plan for these? As any of them shift the game totally into a Wonderland"… True!...True!... you can't 'plan for these'... there are too-many 'Permutations and Combinations' of outcomes that would make the Game an 'Insane Asylum'.

The only remedy or calibrated fix that I can come up with … is to only concentrate on the most impactful event changing situations... such as for example... what if the German's had planned and prepared better for an all out effort to take the 'Caucasus Oil-Fields' [Instead of MOSCOW] with more forces, fuel and an earlier start?. If that effort was successful... then the 'Russian-Army'... would have then been effectively 'Neutered'... they would now be a 2nd or 3rd-rate force to deal with... now being... much less effective!.

Another possible example... could be the axis take-over of 'Malta'... which then would have been an overwhelming 'Game-Changer' for 'Erwin Rommel' in North-Africa!. Major-Major events such as these could have had an altering devastating outcome on further proceedings. We can't let the much lesser impactful confrontations... have the major-sway in the outcome of the conflict!.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Magni » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:48 am

Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:38 am
WWII was not a guaranteed win or lose for either side... too many unforeseen variables... [Such as the coldest winter in 100 years during the "Assault on Moscau"… or the Stormiest English-Channel in the longest time since it was last endured] ...interceded at various moments in time... that either "incrementally" or "decidedly" changed the vectored direction of where the determination of the next 'step-option-choice-decision' would then be determined.
One side in the war between it's members controlled over three quarters of the entire globe's industrial production. The other didn't. No, WWII was pretty much guaranteed to be a lose for the Axis. And blaming weather or poor luck is what sore losers do to excuse their failures. Weather is nobody's ally. If the other side is better prepared for it and better able to plan around it than you, it's because you failed.
In the mentioning of [...the coldest winter in 100 years during the "Assault on Moscau"]… it seems that the Germans were quite unfamiliar with the making of winter-lubricants for extreme cold temperature conditions... such that... on the event of the 'Assault on MOSCAU'... the German Tanks were using 'Summer Oil Lubricants'... Thus!!!... their Tank-Engines had froze-up... they had 'Frozen-Oil' in them... and they couldn't be started up for operations. These Tanks could still have manual operation of their turrets by their crews... so they would still be able to fire projectiles at enemy vehicles that came into range... but that is all that they could do!... they were sitting ducks!. I believe that at least a 1000-Tanks were having this issue.
Which of course means you now have to sacrifice other things in the Zero Sum Game that is german war industry and, more importantly at this point, the already massively overstretched german logistics of late 1941. Reminder, the lack of winter equipment by the Germans was because they made the conscious decision that the very fuel and artillery shells required for them to be able to attempt their last-ditch attack towards Moscow in the first place were more important to rail in from East Prussia than said winter equipment. You want to ship the winter equipment instead? Well, then Operation Typhoon isn't going to reach the gates of Moscow for lack of fuel and ammo - if it happens at all.

Also, by the time they were at the gates of Moscow Army Group Center didn't have 1000 tanks still operational for immediate combat service, and that was BEFORE temperatures got really bad, so I have no clue where your "belief" of those 1000 tanks is coming from. And neither were tanks exactly that powerful in the considerably denser and more forested terrain around Moscow, let alone in the large-scale urban warfare an attempt to storm the city would have resulted in. And with how loudicrously overstretched AGC's supply lines were by that point, a counteroffensive on the scale of the soviet '41-42 winter offensive would have pushed them back regardless of the weather. They simply did not have nearly enough strength anymore to absorb something on that scale without giving ground, and that was without them sacrificing even more of that strength in a doomed attempt to storm the city.
Now!... to change history... in this example... had the Germans had access to 'Winter-Lubricants'... the battle for 'MOSCAU' may have very well have gone quite differently. These small variances that took place during WWII very much decided which way the wind was going to blow!.
No, no they ultimately didn't. It's called the Law of Averages. Things went uncommonly well and uncommonly poor at various times for everyone in the war. That is unavoidable in any war, let alone industrialized total war of such scale. It just so happened that the Allies had the backbone of industrial production and manpower needed to able to afford and recover from those inevitable failures, while the Axis very much DIDN'T. The Axis powers essentially had to get it right and not be unlucky every single time it counted to stand a chance at winning. The Allies meanwhile could afford to get it wrong and to get unlucky with the kind of regularity those things happen in war. That's the kind of systemic, fundamental advantage that small-scale changes and bouts of luck at the tactical and lower operational level ultimately cannot overcome, period.

When you get right down to it, anyone trying to pretend that the Germans lost because they had bad luck has it utterly backwards. If at all, the Germans were outrageously lucky overall to even get as far as they did. And yet they still never came even remotely close to any outcome other than total and utter defeat.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Wolfenguard » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:20 am

mhh i think there are a lot of very different oppinions about a possible or impossible alternative history path in the Game

before we start with the discussion about its possible or not, i think its a design choice of the Programmers of the Game,
we all know how the war endet, so we know how the game ends. For some people it can be dissapointed, when they win every game and in the end, you fight good, but you know, you will be lose the war/game.

But back to the Alt History discussions and a possible path for the game.
i read the Book series about a alternative History Scenario "Stahlzeit" from Tom Zola (In English Panzers: Push for Victory - Battle of Kursk https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07JV7 ... s_rw_dp_sw )
November 1942. Adolf Hitler, the "Führer" of the German Reich, unexpectedly dies in a plane crash in Hungary. The German High Command takes over the regime, disempowers the Nazi Party, and reorganizes its military forces. Germany has to swiftly overcome recent setbacks in North Africa and on the Eastern Front. Furthermore, an allied invasion already casts its long shadow. The German generals understand that it is not about the ultimate victory anymore but merely about achieving a stalemate to save the Reich on the negotiating table. First, they have to stabilize Germany's positions on the Eastern Front. Therefore, the High Command gathers its panzer forces and throws them into a daring all or nothing gamble for the city Kursk.

In This Series the new High Command of Germany changed some things, to try to win the War. Retreat from Stalingrad and Africa. The Africa Corps is send to the east front to strongen them. Change of the Produktion of their Tanks (to a standart model) and Aircrafts (instead of Bombers only defence Aircrafts) aso.

For the normal Alt Talk. I think its really difficult to talk about this Stuff, we know today more about war and the technical stuff and there are a lot of different oppinions how strong or not the own land was at this time.
Like brumleek said its a little bit of a moral dilemma, iam from Germany and have seen and read some different Reportages about the WW2 and read different Forum where People discuss about this thema. What is possible and what not?
Like Would the Bismark have an impact on the war, when she survived the Fight?
What would be, when Werner von Braun fixed eralier the Problem with the V1 / V2?

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Agrastas » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:44 pm

Talking about what-ifs... you guys kinda forget that in AO germany has an extra army/army group, which you happen to control... it is "pure" fiction from very start. For example: In moscow mission, not only player's army takes brunt of soviet winter counter-offense, but can defeat it and capture moscow(pity that your effort get ignored by lack of branching path), thus outperforming entire army group. Essentially in AO, during barbarossa germany fields 4 army groups or its equivalents in punching power.
Wolfenguard wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:20 am
i read the Book series about a alternative History Scenario "Stahlzeit" from Tom Zola (In English Panzers: Push for Victory - Battle of Kursk
Nice series, 4th book about D-day was awesome. It could've been very different fight for allies if Rommel was given full control of defense preparations.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Retributarr » Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:31 pm

Why didn't the Russian Winter impact the Soviet Union the same way it affected Nazi Germany?
https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-Rus ... zi-Germany

George Zhou, B.S Business, Carnegie Mellon University (2021)
Troops of the Soviet were also affected by the winter cold, just to a lesser degree. The main reasons why the Germans were hit harder than the Russians:
1. Soviet trucks and tanks run on diesel fuel, not gasoline. Gasoline tends to gum up in cold temperatures, so German tanks such as Panzer III and IV that ran on gasoline had numerous mechanical issues in the cold. Also, the wider tracks on the T-34 allowed it to traverse snow much better due to weight distribution, unlike German tanks.
3. German guns had a tendency to freeze and jam in cold weather.

Kelly La Rue, Veteran, small business owner, Master Electrician
The Germans didn't come prepared for winter. What cold weather gear they did have was inferior to the Russian gear. The Russians also devised ways to lubricate their weapons so they had fewer freezeups.
"German equipment wasn't designed to work in -30C environment.
A fatal flaw".

How did german equipment do in the russian winter?
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 9f7b98803f

by savantu » 21 May 2003, 21:45
As strange as it can be diesel engines work better at low temperatures.

The problem with petrol [Gasoline] was that you need it to evaporate in the carburetor. At -35 that doesn't happen...So you need to seriously heat up the engine.

A diesel engine injects the fuel at extremly high pressure so even if it is a gel it still works.
"Russian diesel fuel was "low paraffin"/arctic type, that could be used at low temperatures without the danger of turning to jelly (at the filters)".

Second , if memory serves russian V2 engines had a pre-heater

by ChristopherPerrien » 22 May 2003, 20:10
You can run a diesel engine a long time, they don't use nearly as much fuel as a gasoline motor when idling. A hot motor like this will heat up a tank and it's fuel, maybe not enough to keep the crew warm but hot enough to keep the tank operable. A diesel engine stays "happy" as long as its running.

The Germans could not do this with their gasoline tanks so they got cold,
so cold they would freeze to the ground and could not move or fire.

by Harri » 21 May 2003, 23:50
I agree that carburetor is the weak point in gasoline/petrol vehicles. There is always water in the fuel and it freezes easily in carburetor even if the temperature is well over 0 C. Alcohol is added to gas/petrol to prevent that water freezing at mild temperatures (+5 to -10 C). If the temperature is colder separate water freezes in fuel tanks and don't do any harm, until the temperature rises again: then there will be serious problems if alcohol was not used. Engines with fuel injection can do better in cold conditions and are easier to start.

Also pneumatic devices tend to freeze in cold. For example almost the whole 6.Pz.D was in troubles with its technically complicated PzKw 35(t) tanks near Leningrad in early winter 1941 when their pneumatic gear boxes and pneumatic systems froze. That was the main reason for their early retirement in winter 1942.

One not yet mentioned trouble is freezing of optical gear like sights and range finders. These very complicated usually mechanically used devices were among the first equipment to freeze and stop working in cold. Just one point why Finnish sniper Simo Häyhä didn't use optical sights during Winter War...

EFFECTS OF CLIMATE ON COMBAT IN EUROPEAN RUSSIA:

http://www.allworldwars.com/Effects-of- ... ussia.html

Cold reduces the efficiency of men and weapons. At the beginning of December 1941, 6th Panzer Division was but 9 miles from Moscow and 15 miles from the Kremlin when a sudden drop in temperature to —30° F., coupled with a surprise attack by Siberian troops, smashed its drive on the capital. Paralyzed by cold, the German troops could not aim their rifle fire, and bolt mechanisms jammed or strikers shattered in the bitter winter weather. Machine guns became encrusted with ice, recoil liquid froze in guns, ammunition supply failed. Mortar shells detonated in deep snow with a hollow, harmless thud, and mines were no longer reliable. Only one German tank in ten had survived the autumn muddy season, and those still available could not move through the snow because of their narrow tracks. At first the Russian attack was slowed with hand grenades, but after a few days the German prepared positions in villages and farmhouses were surrounded or penetrated.

The Germans held out to the northwest of Moscow until 5 December, and on the next day the first retreat order of the war was given. In the months of the offensive, German battalions and companies had dwindled to a handful of men. The Russian mud and winter had wrought havoc upon their weapons and equipment. Leadership and bravery could not compensate for the lowered fire power of the German divisions. The numerical superiority of the Russians, aided by climatic conditions, saved Moscow and turned the tide of battle. Hitler neither expected nor planned for a winter war.

By mid-December, when the first phase of the German withdrawal ended, 6th Panzer Division was located in Shakhovskaya to refit and receive reinforcements. (Map 2) On Christmas Eve the 4th Armored Infantry Regiment, which had received replacements, was alerted to counterattack Russian forces that had broken through German positions on the Lama River west of Volokolamsk, in the sector of the 106th Infantry Division

MAP 2. Counterattack by 6th Panzer Division near Volokolamsk 28-29 December 1941.
Image
Detailed description of the winter conditions is covered here below this Map at the webpage.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Effects-of- ... ussia.html

Section III. Armored Forces
The principal shortcoming of German tanks was the narrow width of their tracks. Tanks sank deep into the snow, and because of then-limited ground clearance, ultimately became stuck. Russian tanks, particularly the T34, KVl, and KV2, were able to drive through deep snow because of their good ground clearance and wide tracks, and therein lay their special effectiveness in winter warfare.
After the first winter of the war, Germans started to use wide, removable tracks. These solved the problem of snow mobility, but tanks so equipped could not be moved on German railroad cars and were too wide to cross the standard German military bridge. Russian wide tank tracks were factory equipment; the broad gage of Russian railroads with their correspondingly wide flat cars eliminated the transportation problem.

Chapter 4. Russian Tactics
The Russians usually attacked along existing roads or on paths beaten down by their tanks. Frequently, the infantry followed close behind their tanks, using the trail made by the tank tracks. In other instances infantry worked its way forward in snow tunnels toward German positions, despite the heavy losses which resulted from such tactics. In mass attacks the Russians usually debouched from woods and burrowed their way through the deep snow as quickly as possible. Mowed down by machine guns, the first wave would be followed by a second attack which moved forward a short distance over the bodies of the dead before coming to a standstill. This was repeated by as many as ten waves, until the Russians bogged down from heavy losses and exhaustion or until the German defenses were penetrated.

Russian infiltration tactics were most effective in winter, because the German defense system, based on strong points, practically invited such tactics. The Germans were forced to adopt the strong point system of defense because they lacked sufficient forces to occupy continuous lines backed up by reserves. The Russians always sought to split and annihilate defending forces, and to this end cavalry, ski units, airborne troops, and, above all, partisans were used in great numbers.

Section II. Equipment Weapons
Maintenance of weapons is difficult in winter. German rifles and machine guns developed malfunctions because the grease and oil used were not cold-resistant.

Strikers and striker springs broke like glass; fluid in artillery recoil mechanisms solidified, crippling the piece. Light weapons had to be warmed in huts, and fires were lighted under the barrels of guns to get them back into action. Before suitable

lubricants were available, troops found an emergency solution in the removal of every trace of grease and oil from their weapons. In the south of Russia, the abundantly available sunflower oil was used as a lubricant. It is acid-free and cold-resistant.

PART SIX. CONCLUSIONS
Combat in European Russia was greatly influenced by climatic conditions. Large-scale operations and small unit actions were equally affected. The influence of climate was felt in every effort of the German military establishment, whether on land, over water, or in the air.

Climate is a dynamic force in the Russian expanse; the key to successful military operations. He who recognizes and respects this force can overcome it; he who disregards or underestimates it is threatened with failure or destruction.

In 1941 the Wehrmacht did not recognize this force and was not prepared to withstand its effects. Crisis upon crisis and unnecessary suffering were the result. Only the ability of German soldiers to bear up under misfortune prevented disaster. But the German Army never recovered from the first hard blow.

Later the German armed forces understood the effects of climate and overcame them. That victory remained beyond reach was not due to climate alone, but in great measure to the fact that the German "war potential was not equal to supporting a global war. The Wehrmacht was weakened by climatic conditions, and destroyed by the overpowering might of enemy armies.

Panzer73
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:18 am

Re: AO1942??

Post by Panzer73 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:06 pm

heinz1803 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 pm
https://www.slitherine.com/game/panzer- ... ns-1942/pc

17 Scenario List

- Rzhev 1942
What I find most curious about the Rzhev 1942 picture - the first one that shows the battle name - is that the player has a core slot allowance of 100, but has deployed 102!

A hint of a gift unit maybe?

jeannot le lapin
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:29 pm

Re: AO1942??

Post by jeannot le lapin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:33 pm

Panzer73 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:06 pm
heinz1803 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 pm
https://www.slitherine.com/game/panzer- ... ns-1942/pc

17 Scenario List

- Rzhev 1942
What I find most curious about the Rzhev 1942 picture - the first one that shows the battle name - is that the player has a core slot allowance of 100, but has deployed 102!

A hint of a gift unit maybe?
11621 Prestige :shock:

adiekmann
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 792
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 am

Re: AO1942??

Post by adiekmann » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am

Panzer73 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:06 pm
heinz1803 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 pm
https://www.slitherine.com/game/panzer- ... ns-1942/pc

17 Scenario List

- Rzhev 1942
What I find most curious about the Rzhev 1942 picture - the first one that shows the battle name - is that the player has a core slot allowance of 100, but has deployed 102!

A hint of a gift unit maybe?
Yes, that's absolutely what it means! Since it is only turn 3, that means you must get it early, like the way you get the Azul inf early in the first AO1939 scenario. Furthermore, since you're getting only 2 extra slots, it suggests something that is of low slot value like an Pak or Recon.

VirgilInTheSKY
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: AO1942??

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:27 am

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am
Yes, that's absolutely what it means! Since it is only turn 3, that means you must get it early, like the way you get the Azul inf early in the first AO1939 scenario. Furthermore, since you're getting only 2 extra slots, it suggests something that is of low slot value like an Pak or Recon.
A third Armoured Train. :D

paragan
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:40 pm

Re: AO1942??

Post by paragan » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:40 am

VirgilInTheSKY wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:27 am
adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am
Yes, that's absolutely what it means! Since it is only turn 3, that means you must get it early, like the way you get the Azul inf early in the first AO1939 scenario. Furthermore, since you're getting only 2 extra slots, it suggests something that is of low slot value like an Pak or Recon.
A third Armoured Train. :D
You can never have too many knives and armoured trains :lol:

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