Request for a change of double support medal

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sakura006
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Request for a change of double support medal

Post by sakura006 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:13 am

I have a camouflage hero in my current run, and I assign him to a panzer 3N with artillery and AT support heroes. This is just amazing. Enemy swarms to my infantry protected by invisible tank, and all kill themselves. Naturally I start to get medals from expert support. At level 1 and 2, it gives me 10% and 20% accuracy boost in support attack. It is just great boost. But when I finally reach level 3, I get double support. IMO, this is an absolute downgrade. To make it worse, I even lose the accuracy boost. One of the most important things for a supporting weapon is its ammo. How well your supporting weapon can protect your unit depends on how many rounds it can fire. Just think about 88mm gun. It has 4 ammo, with double support, it can almost kill any tanks attacking you. This will give enemy a free hex, and they will keep swarming to your unit because of camouflage, and you lose all your ammo in just 2 rounds. After 2 rounds, your unit is completely exposed without any protections. Of course, this is going to be a huge disadvantage. However, if you don't have double support, it is less likely for you to completely kill. And even if it kills, it can sustain 4 rounds instead of 2. The irony is, it is almost impossible for you to get level 3 support attack without camouflage, because AI does not want to suicide, and you will never have this trouble. But if you have camouflage, it is only a matter of time for you to reach level 3 support attack, and the only thing you can do is to remove camouflage and give it to another supporting weapon. PLEASE dev, remove this level 3 double support medal or change it to something else. This is a huge downgrade.

VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:56 am

Never ever got a level 3 support myself because camouflage hero is so rare, and enemy either ignore your support fire if it is too weak, or avoid your support fire if it is too strong, when you don't give the support unit camouflage. Double support could also stop enemy from triggering it, so I agree that this should get changed to something else. Could even be getting more ammo to keep the unit going.

adiekmann
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by adiekmann » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:24 am

I've never gotten to level 3 either, so I thank you for telling us what it is. Lvl 2 I could have guessed was probably +30% accuracy.

It's interesting because I do the same thing with a AT + Art Support hero. I seem to have never gotten one of each outside of the preset core when not importing. I too add him to a Panzer IV until the Panzer IIIN becomes available. Then a Double Support hero and something else to bump up his power along with camouflage. Destroys entire units in support!

Now, by the time you get to Level 3 Skilled support, aren't you fielding a 4 to 5 star unit by then? Those extra stars of exp will give you +40 accuracy on their own, so I'm not sure why you'd miss it. :?: I thought after a certain point you hit a ceiling limit to your effective accuracy. I'm not certain so perhaps someone else here can chime in and clarify this point in case I'm wrong.

sakura006
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by sakura006 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:26 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:24 am
I've never gotten to level 3 either, so I thank you for telling us what it is. Lvl 2 I could have guessed was probably +30% accuracy.

It's interesting because I do the same thing with a AT + Art Support hero. I seem to have never gotten one of each outside of the preset core when not importing. I too add him to a Panzer IV until the Panzer IIIN becomes available. Then a Double Support hero and something else to bump up his power along with camouflage. Destroys entire units in support!

Now, by the time you get to Level 3 Skilled support, aren't you fielding a 4 to 5 star unit by then? Those extra stars of exp will give you +40 accuracy on their own, so I'm not sure why you'd miss it. :?: I thought after a certain point you hit a ceiling limit to your effective accuracy. I'm not certain so perhaps someone else here can chime in and clarify this point in case I'm wrong.
The problem is not about the accuracy. With single shot, it is less likely to kill a unit. So the wounded unit will occupy that hex, and other units can't attack you. Even if you kill it with 1 support fire and 1 defensive fire, you can still sustain for twice longer rounds. You barely have to worry about ammo issue in this situation. With double support, you kill that unit with two shots. You will quickly lose all ammo in just 2 or 3 rounds. 2 rounds if you have 4 ammo (88 mm), 3 rounds if you have 6 ammo (Panzer 3N). However, since you free that hex, enemy will swarm to you. And after 2 or 3 rounds, you used up all your ammo and leave your unit unprotected. The main purpose of a supporting weapon is to protect, not to kill. Apparently double support + camouflage could easily make your units vulnerable, that's why I say it is a downgrade.

scorehouse
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by scorehouse » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:54 pm

questions about AT support. first how do you determine from the statistics ratings the range and fire power on AA in the AT support role? likewise for a straight up AT unit? is the range 2 or 3 hexes in support? as for Camo Hero, I thought if your Camo unit is adjacent. either beside or behind, another unit u r trying to defend via the ambush, the Camo would be exposed? what happens if 2 88 both Camo are beside each other? what if they both have double and expert support? thanks having problems in this area.

nexusno2000
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by nexusno2000 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:19 pm

scorehouse wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:54 pm
questions about AT support. first how do you determine from the statistics ratings the range and fire power on AA in the AT support role? likewise for a straight up AT unit? is the range 2 or 3 hexes in support? as for Camo Hero, I thought if your Camo unit is adjacent. either beside or behind, another unit u r trying to defend via the ambush, the Camo would be exposed? what happens if 2 88 both Camo are beside each other? what if they both have double and expert support? thanks having problems in this area.
At supports adjacent units, same as other support arty/at.

If you have camo behind the defending unit it is not adjacent and is not spotted. Unless recon.

All applicable units defend as long as the attacker is alive.
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scorehouse
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by scorehouse » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm

so if I'm behind my unit, does my AT support fire against the attacker in front of my unit but 2 hexes away from the AT unit?

VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:01 pm

scorehouse wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:56 pm
so if I'm behind my unit, does my AT support fire against the attacker in front of my unit but 2 hexes away from the AT unit?
Arty and AT Support fire is triggered as long as the support unit is adjacent to the attacked unit and the target type fits. Only Counter Battery and Anti Air support fire takes the attacker's position into consideration, they won't fire if the attacker is out of range.

Do note that AT won't support another AT unit, but AT can support another non-AT unit with AT Support hero. Long words short, AT cannot be supported by AT Support. Same applies to Fighter Support.

scorehouse
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by scorehouse » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:37 pm

ok just so my dumbass understands? Camo is exposed if adjacent but same Camo AT unit will not provide support fire unless it is adjacent to the unit being attacked? seems Russian AT always shoots at me from 2 hexes awAY? so unless the enemy stumbles upon a Camo unit head on....????

adiekmann
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by adiekmann » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:55 pm

scorehouse wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:37 pm
ok just so my dumbass understands? Camo is exposed if adjacent but same Camo AT unit will not provide support fire unless it is adjacent to the unit being attacked? seems Russian AT always shoots at me from 2 hexes awAY? so unless the enemy stumbles upon a Camo unit head on....????
Yes, I think I understand what you are getting at. AT support is given from 2 hexes away even though it has a "normal" range of only 1 hex. Same is true with 1-range artillery units (like the StuGIIIB) and fighters providing support for a bomber that's being attacked by an enemy fighter. If they are providing support fire, then it does so from behind your unit, effectively acting as though it has 2-range when in fact it "normally" only has 1-range.

scorehouse
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by scorehouse » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:26 pm

thank you!!!! my suspicions have been confirmed! hate to belabor this but what the hell. what about artillery support on a tank, recon, or infantry? also, how do you determine the support's firepower especially AA converted to AT?

George_Parr
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by George_Parr » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:23 pm

scorehouse wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:26 pm
thank you!!!! my suspicions have been confirmed! hate to belabor this but what the hell. what about artillery support on a tank, recon, or infantry? also, how do you determine the support's firepower especially AA converted to AT?
What do you mean "what the hell"?
That's a rather logical approach to this sort of stuff. Everything works exactly the same. Basically, it's just like artillery worked in PC1, outside of counter battery fire, which is something seperate.

An artillery support hero will make any unit support a unit in a hex right next to it, provided said unit gets attacked by a soft unit and not a tank. The firepower of an AA-unit that switches to AT-mode is based entirely on the unit-stats in the unit files. If a unit can switch between different types of uses, the unit-file will contain one AA-version of that unit and one AT-version, with stats that fit to the use. There is no difference in a units stats between regular combat and support fire. If it has 28 hard attack then it has 28 hard attack.

You should be able to access the stats of the secondary unit-type in the units menu. Or you can just switch a unit from one mode to another and activate the unit-stats in the menu above.

scorehouse
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
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Re: Request for a change of double support medal

Post by scorehouse » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:47 pm

thanks the ole switcheroo

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