SCW - What's the Point?

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kverdon
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SCW - What's the Point?

Post by kverdon »

I've been playing with the new SCW DLC and not really enjoying it. I keep asking myself "what's the point of this DLC?"

It could be to be a recreation of the Spanish Civil War and the Condor Legion involvement - No, definitely not. Though you go through battles that have similar names, the game make it perfectly clear in its in-game post battle briefings "Though the places and names may be similar, the battle you just fought has no relation to real world events or outcomes".

Ok, Maybe the SCW was not an Epic Conflict so they needed to embellish the other side and spice it up a bit, maybe it is a DLC designed to let a player, like the real Condor Legion, gain experience to prepare them for the coming major conflict of WWII. This would make sense as it would give you a little better core set of units to start Poland '39. No, definitely not. The prestige bleed caused by the, often moronic, actions of your Allies and the fact that they tap your prestige pool, means they will bleed your prestige pool dry. Thus you will be forced to use non-elite replacements for losses (if you have any prestige available to replace losses at all) thus giving you the effect of the "Green Army" trait and preventing you from building up any experienced units.

Since both of the preceding prefaces for the SCW DLC don't work, I have to ask myself "What's the point in this". It's not terribly fun, working with less than stellar units with marginal allies and most times outnumbered and outgunned by a artificially elevated opponent that bares little semblance to their historical counter parts.

My feeling of the DLC is that is is more "Hollywood" than history.
Patrat
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Patrat »

kverdon wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:24 am I've been playing with the new SCW DLC and not really enjoying it. I keep asking myself "what's the point of this DLC?"

It could be to be a recreation of the Spanish Civil War and the Condor Legion involvement - No, definitely not. Though you go through battles that have similar names, the game make it perfectly clear in its in-game post battle briefings "Though the places and names may be similar, the battle you just fought has no relation to real world events or outcomes".

Ok, Maybe the SCW was not an Epic Conflict so they needed to embellish the other side and spice it up a bit, maybe it is a DLC designed to let a player, like the real Condor Legion, gain experience to prepare them for the coming major conflict of WWII. This would make sense as it would give you a little better core set of units to start Poland '39. No, definitely not. The prestige bleed caused by the, often moronic, actions of your Allies and the fact that they tap your prestige pool, means they will bleed your prestige pool dry. Thus you will be forced to use non-elite replacements for losses (if you have any prestige available to replace losses at all) thus giving you the effect of the "Green Army" trait and preventing you from building up any experienced units.

Since both of the preceding prefaces for the SCW DLC don't work, I have to ask myself "What's the point in this". It's not terribly fun, working with less than stellar units with marginal allies and most times outnumbered and outgunned by a artificially elevated opponent that bares little semblance to their historical counter parts.

My feeling of the DLC is that is is more "Hollywood" than history.

I'm currently reading Anthony beavers book, The Battle for Spain. The battles in the DLC pretty closely follow what occurred in real life.

Yes, the Republican force might be a little bit better than it was in real life. But if they didn't beef up the Republicans, the better players would find the game no challenge at all.

People are especially complaining about the battle of the Ebro. They should take a look at a map of the battle and see how much territory the Republicans grabbed before they were defeated by the nationalist counter attack.

In my first play thru I lost the battle. But the Republicans didn't grab anywhere near as much territory as they grabbed in real life.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not experiencing the massive prestige loss caused by the nationalist that so many are complaining about. Maybe because I make sure to support them with enough artillery and some Italian infantry. Sometimes I even throw in a panzer to support them if I can spare one.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)
Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky »

Patrat wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:39 am
I'm currently reading Anthony beavers book, The Battle for Spain. The battles in the DLC pretty closely follow what occurred in real life.
The book I bought as research material was

https://www.amazon.com/Spain-Arms-Milit ... 161200637X

Rather dry reading, but it had some fantastic maps with locations names that if anyone picks up this book, they will instantly recognize PzC2 maps and location names (to a fault, it seems some of the names printed in the book weren't 100% correct lol)
Patrat wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:39 am As I've mentioned before, I'm not experiencing the massive prestige loss caused by the nationalist that so many are complaining about. Maybe because I make sure to support them with enough artillery and some Italian infantry. Sometimes I even throw in a panzer to support them if I can spare one.
Yes this seems to be the dividing factor between players who really like, and really don't like, AI allies. It seems quite proportional to how closely they support and work with the AI. Many reports saying they don't like it also mention they just abandoned the AI to do its own thing. And for a force that is almost exclusively made up of infantry only, it's not terribly surprising it struggles without player artillery and air support.
Patrat
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Patrat »

I bought that book first. But as you say, its rather dry. I got thru the battle of the Jarma in it. Then bought the Beevor book, since I have read him before and like his writing style.

I'll probably go back and finish the Hooten book when I'm done with Beevors book.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)
Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr »

I hear the disgruntled complaining!... some of which... has real-merit... and... some of which... does not!.

The complaint... that has "Merit" deals with the |Future" European and North African Core-Forces. I was hoping to have more interaction with the Italians and the Germans... as fledgling 'Core-Units'... to build them up!... to develop their attributes... but!!!... so-far... I see none of that taking place at-all???. We can't transfer these semi-trained Spanish Nationalist Units to Europe or to 'Africa!'. They will "Never" be the 'Core-Force' in either of those regions... that will be used in the future. So... now... the opportunity to do any of that seems to be completely lost!. QUESTION!... are these issues going to ever be dealt with?... and if so... how?.

Now!... On the other-hand... the complaint or issue dealing with the Spanish Nationalist Infantry that has 'No-Merit' is next!.. The "Spanish Nationalist Army"... has been unjustly condemned for being at fault for incredible incompetence as well as uselessness including being guilty of the massive wasteful use of replenishment resources... because of and the 'Result-Of'... the 'Players' gross-improper-handling and gross-lack of proper military support and 'Co-ordination with these Units!.

Overall... I closely watch what the Spanish Nationalist ground forces are doing and then give them all the support that I can spare... then!!!... there is 'No-Problem'... the result is that they... in turn... take light-casualties... and perform their task reasonably-well!... sometimes quite-well!. At this moment I have in excess of 20,000 replenishment points to use!... where am I going to use them???. I have 'No-Problem' at all working with the Spanish-Ground-Forces!.


.
Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky »

Patrat wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:05 am I bought that book first. But as you say, its rather dry. I got thru the battle of the Jarma in it. Then bought the Beevor book, since I have read him before and like his writing style.

I'll probably go back and finish the Hooten book when I'm done with Beevors book.
I think it's meant to be dry... because it's very strictly military history. Very much the classic definition of teaching history by just listing out facts, names, dates. Useful, but it required a lot of 'translation' to turn into a proper video gaming experience. :mrgreen:
o_t_d_x
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by o_t_d_x »

Retributarr wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 am I hear the disgruntled complaining!... some of which... has real-merit... and... some of which... does not!.

The complaint... that has "Merit" deals with the |Future" European and North African Core-Forces. I was hoping to have more interaction with the Italians and the Germans... as fledgling 'Core-Units'... to build them up!... to develop their attributes... but!!!... so-far... I see none of that taking place at-all???. We can't transfer these semi-trained Spanish Nationalist Units to Europe or to 'Africa!'. They will "Never" be the 'Core-Force' in either of those regions... that will be used in the future. So... now... the opportunity to do any of that seems to be completely lost!. QUESTION!... are these issues going to ever be dealt with?... and if so... how?.

Now!... On the other-hand... the complaint or issue dealing with the Spanish Nationalist Infantry that has 'No-Merit' is next!.. The "Spanish Nationalist Army"... has been unjustly condemned for being at fault for incredible incompetence as well as uselessness including being guilty of the massive wasteful use of replenishment resources... because of and the 'Result-Of'... the 'Players' gross-improper-handling and gross-lack of proper military support and 'Co-ordination with these Units!.

Overall... I closely watch what the Spanish Nationalist ground forces are doing and then give them all the support that I can spare... then!!!... there is 'No-Problem'... the result is that they... in turn... take light-casualties... and perform their task reasonably-well!... sometimes quite-well!. At this moment I have in excess of 20,000 replenishment points to use!... where am I going to use them???. I have 'No-Problem' at all working with the Spanish-Ground-Forces!.


.
My problem with the ai allies: i am ok with the 3 orders - mostly i use onyl 2 - attack and hold. But i want to give this orders to every individual unit. If one part of the ai falls back, i want to order attack. And to the ones who are already where they should be, i want to order hold.

Instead of defend, what i rarely use, i would need a new order: "hold without touching my prestige". Prestige is my reputation in the german OKW, why should that be needed for the spanish to get supplies ? (which the germans didnt deliver - or did they drop large amounts of supplies during nationalist attacks ? and even if they did, I want to control who gets supplies and how much)
Last edited by o_t_d_x on Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
kverdon
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by kverdon »

Retributarr wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 am [

Overall... I closely watch what the Spanish Nationalist ground forces are doing and then give them all the support that I can spare... then!!!... there is 'No-Problem'... the result is that they... in turn... take light-casualties... and perform their task reasonably-well!... sometimes quite-well!. At this moment I have in excess of 20,000 replenishment points to use!... where am I going to use them???. I have 'No-Problem' at all working with the Spanish-Ground-Forces!.
.
Would you mind sharing you core force composition and commander traits so as to give the rest of us a hint as to how you managed to build up a 20000 prestige pool?
colberki
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by colberki »

I am enjoying very much the "underpowered" German units. SCW takes it to several levels beyond the one scenario treatment in Panzer General 2.
Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr »

kverdon wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:19 am
Retributarr wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 am [

Overall... I closely watch what the Spanish Nationalist ground forces are doing and then give them all the support that I can spare... then!!!... there is 'No-Problem'... the result is that they... in turn... take light-casualties... and perform their task reasonably-well!... sometimes quite-well!. At this moment I have in excess of 20,000 replenishment points to use!... where am I going to use them???. I have 'No-Problem' at all working with the Spanish-Ground-Forces!.
.
Would you mind sharing you core force composition and commander traits so as to give the rest of us a hint as to how you managed to build up a 20000 prestige pool?
Here it is:
Spanish Civil-War Force Composition... Including... 'Reserves': [Not Including Italian Units]
___I would choose Units from this 'Force-Pool' depending on the 'Task-At-Hand'.___
Verdeja 2 [Tank] [When a weakened unit is attacked by this Tank... the Enemy-Unit usually "Surrenders"... thereby greatly adding to my 'Replenishment Point Reserves]
***Envelopment
***Vigalent
***Lightening Attack
Panzer IIA [Tank] ***Scavenger
***Zero Slots [At the time... I had No-Where else to place this]
Panzer IB [Tank]
***Overrun
***Evasive
Panzer IB [Tank]
***Cheap Replacements
***First Strike
***Scavenger
+ 2-More Panzer IB [Tank]
2X Sdkfz 231 Grad [Reconnaissance Vehicle]
203 mm M1931 [Heavy Artillery Gun_Range-4
2X 8.8cm Flak 18 W/Anti-Tank Capability
2X 3.7cm Pak 36 [Horse Drawn Anti-Tank Gun]
1X 37mm Bofors [Italian Horse Drawn Anti-Tank Gun]
7X 10.5 cm LeFH 18 [Artillery Pieces]
Bf 109B [Fighter] W/Adolf Galland
+4 additional Bf 109B [Fighter]
3X Ju 87A [Tactical Bomber]
3X Ju 86 [Strategic Bomber]
Last edited by Retributarr on Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
egrofik
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by egrofik »

yes, I also enjoy the underpowered german units. But with the spanish infantry and some arty support and space for fighting there are very powerfull.
These Panzer Ia is incredible bad, but It's fun to fight with him and capture new equipment (okay with trophys of war).
I like this DLC, but these opponent hero units???
I think these need some improvment, but I have to think about in which direction.
P5138
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by P5138 »

Kerensky wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:52 am Yes this seems to be the dividing factor between players who really like, and really don't like, AI allies. It seems quite proportional to how closely they support and work with the AI. Many reports saying they don't like it also mention they just abandoned the AI to do its own thing. And for a force that is almost exclusively made up of infantry only, it's not terribly surprising it struggles without player artillery and air support.
I must be a weird one, because I am on the fence about the AI units. I like them as a concept. I like some of their implementation. I just wish they had a bit more of an ability to not do stupid moves. Generally, I just wish the AI had some ability to assess beyond just their own individual unit. It's very hard to, for example, provide artillery/air support to a unit when you can't be sure what they plan on attacking. It's impossible to provide defensive artillery support if you don't know where they will be defending.

I think the thing that some players really don't like about the AI ally is that they are an entirely opaque system of decisions that the player has to plan for through guesswork. Even understanding what the command buttons do and what the AI's algorithm causes it to do, the AI often does things that just make no sense (to a human player). They add even more randomness into what is a strategic game. I've restarted many scenarios just because the AI acted so badly, and so off of what they "should" do, that it was too expensive to keep going. Maps like Merida, Toledo, Teruel, and Ebro all are really "random" with how the AI decides to move and can become a burden on the player through no fault of their own.
Retributarr
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Retributarr »

P5138 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:17 pm
Generally, I just wish the AI had some ability to assess beyond just their own individual unit. It's very hard to, for example, provide artillery/air support to a unit when you can't be sure what they plan on attacking. It's impossible to provide defensive artillery support if you don't know where they will be defending.
The "Trick" is to 'First'-do the 'Preppartory Artillery Bombardments' combined with Air-Strikes on the 'Targets' that you want the Spanish-Infantry to deal with... and 'Neutralize'. Once they see what you have Bombarded... they will then usually head right for those 'Bombardment Prepped Targets'... if they are not too much out of the way!.
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by P5138 »

Retributarr wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:28 pm The "Trick" is to 'First'-do the 'Preppartory Artillery Bombardments' combined with Air-Strikes on the 'Targets' that you want the Spanish-Infantry to deal with... and 'Neutralize'. Once they see what you have Bombarded... they will then usually head right for those 'Bombardment Prepped Targets'... if they are not too much out of the way!.
The catch to that is the "usually". The friendly AI's fickle hierarchy of needs doesn't mean they will comply to coordinate with your actions. If they don't attack at what you soften for them, it's a wasted turn for your artillery and bombers, and will probably end up costing you prestige in the long run.

Thing is, I like the SCW DLC in spite of the friendly AI units, not because of them.
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Patrat »

Kerensky wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:18 am
Patrat wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:05 am I bought that book first. But as you say, its rather dry. I got thru the battle of the Jarma in it. Then bought the Beevor book, since I have read him before and like his writing style.

I'll probably go back and finish the Hooten book when I'm done with Beevors book.
I think it's meant to be dry... because it's very strictly military history. Very much the classic definition of teaching history by just listing out facts, names, dates. Useful, but it required a lot of 'translation' to turn into a proper video gaming experience. :mrgreen:
Well it does read a lot like quotes from real life after action reports, which are definitely dry. Speaking of classic history, Hootens book reads a lot like Thucydides, only dryer. Lol

I think you've done a great job translating history into a playable and very enjoyable game.

This is coming from an old guy who has read a lot of military history and played a lot of wargames over the decades. Starting in the late 1960s with Avalon Hill board games.
Last edited by Patrat on Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This breaking news just in,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco,,,, Is Still Dead!

Here's a follow up to that story,,,,
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is valiantly struggling to remain dead!
(Chevy Chase SNL Weekend Update 1975)
IceSerpent
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by IceSerpent »

kverdon wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:19 am Would you mind sharing you core force composition and commander traits so as to give the rest of us a hint as to how you managed to build up a 20000 prestige pool?
It's most likely due to lower difficulty setting. Just to give an example, in my FM campaign I started Early Madrid mission with 11 prestige (and couldn't fully reinforce my two Pak 36 ATGs - they ended up at 9/10), while in my General campaign I started the same mission with 4500 prestige after reinforcing the whole gang.
Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky »

IceSerpent wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:53 pm It's most likely due to lower difficulty setting. Just to give an example, in my FM campaign I started Early Madrid mission with 11 prestige (and couldn't fully reinforce my two Pak 36 ATGs - they ended up at 9/10), while in my General campaign I started the same mission with 4500 prestige after reinforcing the whole gang.
Default difficulty mode is definitely swimming in prestige. I can do the worst travesties imaginable when it comes to proper prestige management (Elite reinforcement DURING the mission *gasp*) and my prestige numbers still climb up instead of bottoming out. :shock:



I am staying afloat in a healthy 5000ish prestige range at all times, but there are times when it dips way below that (Brunete hurt) and times when it goes above and I have some recovery (Aragon Offensive)
Kerensky
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky »

I think this post sums up what is the point better than any flowery, official statement of the product ever could:

viewtopic.php?f=464&t=100058#p866310
IceSerpent
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by IceSerpent »

Kerensky wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:10 pm I am staying afloat in a healthy 5000ish prestige range at all times, but there are times when it dips way below that (Brunete hurt) and times when it goes above and I have some recovery (Aragon Offensive)
On FM difficulty? :shock:
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Re: SCW - What's the Point?

Post by Kerensky »

IceSerpent wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:31 pm On FM difficulty? :shock:
Generalissimus, the 80% reduction setting.
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