AO 1939 scn tree is VERY controversial

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kondi754
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AO 1939 scn tree is VERY controversial

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:52 pm

I find this selection of scenarios very controversial in this DLC.
The French limited attack in the Saarland was not so interesting to devote as many as 5 maps to this event.
They shot a bit in the air and returned to the trenches and bunkers... :lol:

As much as I like SCW, I'm not going to play this part.
Anyway, there is a brilliant Red Storm DLC for OoB in preparation, which I already had the opportunity to play, Wasteland 3 is coming soon (only 6 days left :D ), so I will have something else to do

(this whole part is laughable - Czechoslovakia??? what the hell is this? a raid on a brasserie in Prague to kidnap the good soldier Švejk? :lol: :lol: :lol: )
Last edited by kondi754 on Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Retributarr
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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Retributarr » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:02 pm

Jest!... Deride!.. Put Down!... and Scoff!... all you want!. But!!!... the "Fact-Of-The-Matter"... is... "He who laughs LAST... Laughs BEST!".

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Kerensky » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:09 pm

The French also laughed at the importance of Czechoslovakia. They considered it so insignificant they basically gave it away to Germany as part of their Appeasement policy. They weren't laughing when Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) starting rolling through the French countryside not one year later.

And that's just the existing weaponry Germany immediately absorbed. Later on, many successful SPAT and SPARTY units would be born from modified Czech armored vehicles...

You're free to judge a book by it's cover, but I think it's a mistake to do so, given this is real historical content that is always glossed over in other games. It's not like it's pure fictional flights of fancy, these things really happened. :!:

kondi754
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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:10 pm

I wrote it with full responsibility.
This selection of scenarios is a scandal :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: and I am not going to write it again.
Believe me, this is a very bitter laugh on my part, because I consider PzC 2 a very important game and such a scenario tree ruined everything :!:

EDIT. It's not even about Czechoslovakia, let it be. What are 5 maps from the Western Front doing here in 1939?

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:16 pm

No, it "is" not a disaster, you are just no fan of it, while other people such as myself are very happy PC2 is now trying to do some new things that have not been done before.

Sure, they could also have done a 1:1 conversion of the PC1 Grand Campaign to PC2, but at least I'm happy they are not doing that and showing some guts to (finally) try some new things in the genre. I understand the historical context and I also understand that the Saar offensive getting almost as many scenarios as Poland seems like things being out of proportion. However, I think this was done by people who very much know where we are coming from with Panzer General type games and they understand some people would like to see some new parts of the WW2 conflict getting a highlight.

I get what you're saying, but it's just too much hyperbole: "disaster", "laughable"... these are words for a troll. Using harsh words does not make your argument stronger, it makes it sound like you cannot bring forth a decent argument. You have 3000+ messages on these forums and your reaction to a dlc that has just launched is something like "GaMe sucKs, MWahaHAA I wilL IgnOre yoU and go PlaY DiffeREnt GaMes, LOok at How P0werFUl I Am!!1!"

Is this DLC all perfect then? I've only just started it, but probably not. I'll get to that in other threads with some (hopefully) constructive criticism.

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Kerensky » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:23 pm

Hmm you guys are falling into a pretty dangerous trap here. You are infatuated with the raw scenario count, with no idea how big or what those scenarios even are. More than one Polish scenario is extremely large, while one of the Saar scenarios is a small, optional, ahistorical mini-game.

We could easily have inflated each DLC to be 30 scenarios, but made them last 5 turns each. But we care a heck of a lot more about the content, not just the number. :idea:

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:28 pm

Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:16 pm
No, it "is" not a disaster, you are just no fan of it, while other people such as myself are very happy PC2 is now trying to do some new things that have not been done before.

Sure, they could also have done a 1:1 conversion of the PC1 Grand Campaign to PC2, but at least I'm happy they are not doing that and showing some guts to (finally) try some new things in the genre. I understand the historical context and I also understand that the Saar offensive getting almost as many scenarios as Poland seems like things being out of proportion. However, I think this was done by people who very much know where we are coming from with Panzer General type games and they understand some people would like to see some new parts of the WW2 conflict getting a highlight.

I get what you're saying, but it's just too much hyperbole: "disaster", "laughable"... these are words for a troll. Using harsh words does not make your argument stronger, it makes it sound like you cannot bring forth a decent argument. You have 3000+ messages on these forums and your reaction to a dlc that has just launched is something like "GaMe sucKs, MWahaHAA I wilL IgnOre yoU and go PlaY DiffeREnt GaMes, LOok at How P0werFUl I Am!!1!"

Is this DLC all perfect then? I've only just started it, but probably not. I'll get to that in other threads with some (hopefully) constructive criticism.
Believe me, you could find much more interesting, new scenarios in the classic scn tree, you just need a bit of willingness and time spent in the library.
It looks to me that they checked where the game sells best and assembled such a monster
Do not lecture me on how to conduct discussions because I have participated in many interesting discussions here and I'm known for my historical knowledge and very broad argumentation.
What I saw is so terrible that I don't want to discuss it

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Rhaeg » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:34 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:28 pm
Do not lecture me on how to conduct discussions because I have participated in many interesting discussions here and I'm known for my historical knowledge and very broad argumentation.
What I saw is so terrible that I don't want to discuss it
Well, you win then.

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Retributarr » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:52 pm

Rhaeg wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:16 pm
No, it "is" not a disaster, you are just no fan of it, while other people such as myself are very happy PC2 is now trying to do some new things that have not been done before.

some people would like to see some new parts of the WW2 conflict getting a highlight.

YOUR-reaction to a dlc that has just launched is something like "GaMe sucKs, MWahaHAA I wilL IgnOre yoU and go PlaY DiffeREnt GaMes, LOok at How P0werFUl I Am!!1!"

Is this DLC all perfect then? I've only just started it, but probably not. I'll get to that in other threads with some (hopefully) constructive criticism.
"Rhaeg!!!"... "I'm with You!". Who-Knows???... maybe 'Kondi's' assertions are correct?... But!!!..."Me-Thinks-Not". I am "So-Gladddd!!!"... to see some 'Diversification-Ventures' in these tried and true WWII Gaming-Creations!. "I Say!"... let the "Wild-Horses-Ride"...where they must!... let's see them... "Kick up some Dust!!!".

Finale!'... I have had-enough of this... "Lets boldly go where everyone has gone before!"... it's time for that saying to go out the "Back-Door!".
Last edited by Retributarr on Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeannot le lapin
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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by jeannot le lapin » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:02 pm

The Saar Offensive is very interesting.
At the Nuremberg Trials, German military commander Alfred Jodl said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions." General Siegfried Westphal stated that if the French had attacked in full force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks."

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Kerensky » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:14 pm

jeannot le lapin wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:02 pm
The Saar Offensive is very interesting.
At the Nuremberg Trials, German military commander Alfred Jodl said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions." General Siegfried Westphal stated that if the French had attacked in full force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks."
Yup, I quite enjoyed writing several of the debriefings and Saar Offensive historical notes to reflect that history. It's one thing to say 23 divisions held back 110, but there are a wealth of reasons why this happened. It wasn't a giant battle of Germans being outnumbered 5 to 1 but miraculously winning anyways.

So many factors came into play, and it was awesome to explore more than a few of those factors in the scenarios themselves. New objectives to sow minefields, using dense terrain to further slow the advance, using previously sown minefields as a distraction for a limited counterattack... all very cool stuff I've never seen in any WW2 game because no one covers Saar Offensive ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKTbhC0s5xg

If I could describe the German efforts against the Saar Offensive in Panzer Corps 2... it's less about raw military might and more about intimidation and bluffing the French into moving extra slowly and being overly cautious. :)

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:42 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:14 pm
jeannot le lapin wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:02 pm
The Saar Offensive is very interesting.
At the Nuremberg Trials, German military commander Alfred Jodl said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions." General Siegfried Westphal stated that if the French had attacked in full force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks."
Yup, I quite enjoyed writing several of the debriefings and Saar Offensive historical notes to reflect that history. It's one thing to say 23 divisions held back 110, but there are a wealth of reasons why this happened. It wasn't a giant battle of Germans being outnumbered 5 to 1 but miraculously winning anyways.

So many factors came into play, and it was awesome to explore more than a few of those factors in the scenarios themselves. New objectives to sow minefields, using dense terrain to further slow the advance, using previously sown minefields as a distraction for a limited counterattack... all very cool stuff I've never seen in any WW2 game because no one covers Saar Offensive ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKTbhC0s5xg

If I could describe the German efforts against the Saar Offensive in Panzer Corps 2... it's less about raw military might and more about intimidation and bluffing the French into moving extra slowly and being overly cautious. :)
Ok, I got it
Our main character, German general was assigned to defense western border of 3rd Reich and when he succesfully accomplished his task, he was immediately transferred to Poland to support... What? Chasing the remnants of the Polish army through the forests?
Everything that was most important in Poland took place until September 17, then it was the capture and elimination of the remnants of the Polish army.

BTW, I'm curious how did you move the narration to Finland?
Who is our general in the Battle of Ratte Road? Mannerheim's advisor?

Kerensky, I hope you will be consistent and skip other battles that have been played many times earlier in the next parts of AO :twisted:

Instead of a classic French campaign, I propose an attack by Italian forces on France and battles in a very interesting landscape of the Maritime Alps and the French Riviera, it is so new and fresh

Instead of Stalingrad, we will move to Norway to repel the British landing, and for the time of the Battle of Kursk, I propose to transfer our general to Yugoslavia, let him fight Tito's partisans. Never was that either?

Instead of landing in Normandy, a landing in the Pas-de-Calais region, and for the time of the Battle of the Bulge, let us lock our hero in one of the ports on the English Channel, let him command his defense.

The thing is that you should look for new ideas and solutions, but the trick is not to lead to absurdity.

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by nexusno2000 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:47 pm

Like I said in the beta, I really like all the new areas, France and the Finland scenarios. But Poland IS sadly underrepresented.

The Czech scenario... Funny in a way, but not a great way to start the DLC. Denmark was maybe not high on my list of things I wanted to see, but ok, it was fun enough.

Overall a good dlc, I think. Definitely not a distaster.
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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Patrat » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:17 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:42 pm


Ok, I got it
Our main character, German general was assigned to defense western border of 3rd Reich and when he succesfully accomplished his task, he was immediately transferred to Poland to support... What? Chasing the remnants of the Polish army through the forests?
Everything that was most important in Poland took place until September 17, then it was the capture and elimination of the remnants of the Polish army.

BTW, I'm curious how did you move the narration to Finland?
Who is our general in the Battle of Ratte Road? Mannerheim's advisor?

Kerensky, I hope you will be consistent and skip other battles that have been played many times earlier in the next parts of AO :twisted:

Instead of a classic French campaign, I propose an attack by Italian forces on France and battles in a very interesting landscape of the Maritime Alps and the French Riviera, it is so new and fresh

Instead of Stalingrad, we will move to Norway to repel the British landing, and for the time of the Battle of Kursk, I propose to transfer our general to Yugoslavia, let him fight Tito's partisans. Never was that either?

Instead of landing in Normandy, a landing in the Pas-de-Calais region, and for the time of the Battle of the Bulge, let us lock our hero in one of the ports on the English Channel, let him command his defense.

The thing is that you should look for new ideas and solutions, but the trick is not to lead to absurdity.
I have read many of your posts in this forum and have been impressed by your historical knowledge, but I disagree with your assessment of this DLC choice of battles to represent and your sarcasm regarding future choices the dev's might make.

You know that its quite possible to have all the big important battles represented in a DLC (or a grand campaign for that matter), but still include small, less well known, or seemingly unimportant battles as well.

I've been playing wargames and studying military history for over 50 years. And I welcome the chance to game out battles, that even I am unfamiliar with.
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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Retributarr » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:36 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:42 pm
There is 'No-Instead" here where we are going!:
???"No-One...But No-One" is asking for an 'Elimination' of the 'Classic-WWII-Engagements'... Only "You!" and "You-Yourself"... are insinuating that!... inferring that... that is what we want and where we want to take this PzC2 pathway!. You are so 'Twisted-Wrong!'. All we want... is an expanded view of other existing situations that transpired during this conflict... to in essence shed more light or details on this historical subject-matter!... while... making it more interesting, immersive and enjoyable all at the same time... not to instead... alternatively... delve into unreal-bogus-fictitious situations and adventures.

Instead of a classic French campaign, I propose an attack by Italian forces on France and battles in a very interesting landscape of the Maritime Alps and the French Riviera, it is so new and fresh

Instead of Stalingrad, we will move to Norway to repel the British landing, and for the time of the Battle of Kursk, I propose to transfer our general to Yugoslavia, let him fight Tito's partisans. Never was that either?

Instead of landing in Normandy, a landing in the Pas-de-Calais region, and for the time of the Battle of the Bulge, let us lock our hero in one of the ports on the English Channel, let him command his defense.

The thing is that you should look for new ideas and solutions, but the trick is not to lead to absurdity.

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:59 pm

@retributar

but You speak for everyone now
I have a question, do Devs ever ask what campaign path players would like?
Was there any opinion poll on this issue?
No, they arbitrarily choose what they want to show, according to very vague criteria, because for me the explanation that someone wanted to show something new is no explanation

We, the players, get the finished product and have nothing to say. I don't like this product very much and have the right to protest as a recipient and customer

Think about the fans of PzC in Poland, many of them will be very disappointed because someone decided instead of the battle of Yordanow, Mokra, Mlawa, defending the Polish sea coast, or the heroic defense of the bunker line at the Narew river by 300 Polish soldiers against the 40,000 German army corps, he preferred to show happy French soldiers playing football with Germans on the Maginot Line

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by Retributarr » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:15 pm

Do I speak for 'Everyone?':
"I-Speak"... based on what I read in these forums... and no-nobody is asking for ridiculousness!.

As far as to 'Having-Your-Say'... well... I have read and heard that the 'Developers' do actually read our postings...they do!... so now why-not make a few of your own postings... to let them know your 'Points of Concern'... others that 'Agree' with you will join your 'Choir'... then you can all sing the same song to the 'Developers' to get them to change direction.

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by kondi754 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:20 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:15 pm
Do I speak for 'Everyone?':
"I-Speak"... based on what I read in these forums... and no-nobody is asking for ridiculousness!.

As far as to 'Having-Your-Say'... well... I have read and heard that the 'Developers' do actually read our postings...they do!... so now why-not make a few of your own postings... to let them know your 'Points of Concern'... others that 'Agree' with you will join your 'Choir'... then you can all sing the same song to the 'Developers' to get them to change direction.
You didn't understand what I wrote, huh?

BTW, "nobody is asking for ridiculousness" but later creates nonsense things

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by KesaAnna » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:40 pm

Well ..... I have often over the years gotten the impression that criticism and the intensity of feeling is never at such a pitch , or of such a quality , among enemies , as among lovers.

For example , I purchased the Field Marshal edition of this game back in March because I had really fond memories of Panzer General of 20 years ago ( ? ) , and so I had very high hopes of this game.

In point of fact , in my first go at playing this game I was ACUTELY , SAVAGELY , disappointed. :lol:

Now , I am perhaps of the excessively fan boy - type. :lol:

The impression I get of this criticism is that it is of the lover type , not the enemy type.

my impression is this criticism is more in the manner of flattery , and a compliment , rather than otherwise.

My two cents worth. :)

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Re: AO 1939 scn tree is a disaster

Post by dalfrede » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:04 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:59 pm
I have a question, do Devs ever ask what campaign path players would like?
Getting out of my lane, but calling the Tree a disaster when you meant the campaign irks me.

1) The Devs do read all the posts.
2) The Dev[Flashback] is not doing the AO campaigns, the Publisher[Slitherline] hired an outside contractor to write the AO campaign.
3) The Outside contractor [Kerensky], also reads these posts, and feels perfectly happy to ignore them as he sees fit.
As you may have noticed.

The next DLC has not been decided/scheduled.
It may be AO-40, it may be US-42, may be . . .
Feel free to weight in.

Disclamer:
I do not personally know anyone working for Slitherline or Flashback, I just browse these forums like everyone else and read between the lines.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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