Finland without Finnish?!?

[FunPolice749]

I think passing off reskinned infantry and generic artillery as Finland and trying to say that roster is Panzer Corps 2's version of the Winter War is even more insulting.

The title of the thread goes to the heart of it.

You just have to accept Finland in Axis Operations is as representative of the Winter War as much as Finland was representative of the Winter War in Panzer General 2. This is not Finland without Finnish. This is ahistorical bonus German content in a Wehrmacht themed Grand Campaign.

Expecting a full Finnish campaign within the Axis Operations is simply unreasonable, and was never the goal, attempt, or promise made at any point with the content. No piece of marketing says '1939 covers the Winter War' No piece of marketing says a word about Finnish units.

I get that people want a full Winter War piece of content, and maybe they'll get it someday.

Yeah personally I'm happy AO didn't try to cram in the entire winter war into it. I just personally would've preferred to have a small amount auxiliary Finnish infantry/equipment to kinda sell that the Finnish are overstretched horribly which justifies us being there in a way. Like in Taipale if there was 2-3 Finnish Infantry grappling to a few victory hexes while several others remain open to me would've sold that we're there helping the Finnish. I totally can get on board with ahistorical scenarios I really enjoyed Forbach and wait for the future ones to come out. I think it would've overall just kind of sold the missions a bit better at least in my opinion but obviously some people were expecting an entire Winter war thing. I also agree that's unreasonable to expect but at the same time, due to this getting 2 bonus scenarios I would've expected some Finnish troops at least.

Although I think the claim that only having a few reskinned units and saying it’s Finland is an insult ends up as unfair. Finland didn’t have much in terms of equipment that was unique and an overwhelming majority of it was imported/captured from various nations. Artillery, AT guns, AA guns, and the very small amounts of armor (and also airplanes) during the Winter war were basically slightly modified versions of equipment already in PzC 2. Really the only unique unit that Finland had was the famous Ski Troops but outside that I’m pretty sure it mostly basic infantry and equipment from other nations.

[terminator]

In Panzercorps, there were some Finnish units, why aren’t they in Panzercorps 2?

Capture d’écran (682).jpg (101.68 KiB) Viewed 3185 times

[Kerensky]

In Panzer General 2 Winter War, there were German and Finnish troops :

In Panzer Corps 2, there are two scenarios instead of one Panzer General 2 map. So there are more scenarios with your CORE units instead of less scenarios with auxiliaries.

Do you want to compare the Panzer General 2 Spanish Civil War content to Panzer Corps 2 content? That would be a very interesting comparison to make.

I get that players want more, and that's great. But like I said, if you were expecting full Winter War, look at the cost, size, and scope of Spanish Civil War. Even half that much work is not an amount of work we can just staple onto DLC 1939 that is already packed full of Czech, Saar, Polish, and more content.

[Retributarr]

You know your 'Business' "Kerensky"... so I will not try to argue with you!.
I still want to 'Post' this information:

Operation Silver Fox
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... territory.

Operation Silver Fox (German: Silberfuchs; Finnish: Hopeakettu) from 29 June to 17 November 1941, was a German–Finnish military operation on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

A German column during the advance on Murmansk, 1941


Murmansk, port and administrative center of Murmansk Oblast, in the Russian North

Planning

The original plan for operation Silver Fox.

Hitler issued Directive No. 21, which detailed the campaign plan for Operation Barbarossa, including the targets for proposed German–Finnish cooperation. The detailed plan for the operation was created by Nikolaus von Falkenhorst, commander of the Army of Norway and his staff in January 1941.

Operation Silver Fox was planned as a two-staged pincer movement, in three operations; the first phase was Operation Reindeer (Unternehmen Rentier) in which the two divisions of Mountain Corps Norway, the 2nd and 3rd Mountain Divisions under the leadership of Eduard Dietl were to move east from Kirkenes and to deploy in the Finnish held area around Petsamo to secure the nickel mines.

The second phase of Operation Silver Fox was to be a pincer attack against the Soviet port of Murmansk which was ice-free in winter and with Arkhangelsk was likely to be a destination for Western Allied supplies to the USSR. The first prong of the attack was to be a frontal assault against Murmansk by Mountain Corps Norway. The two divisions were to advance east from Petsamo to take Murmansk. On their way, they were to secure the Rybachy Peninsula, supported by Finnish border units. This first pincer attack was code named Operation Platinum Fox (Unternehmen Platinfuchs).

The second pincer, codenamed Operation Arctic Fox (Unternehmen Polarfuchs), was to be launched further south to take Salla, ceded to the Soviet Union after the Winter War and then to proceed eastwards along the railway to capture Kandalaksha, cutting the vital Murmansk Railway line which connected Murmansk with Central Russia. The operation would involve the German XXXVI Corps under command of Hans Feige and the Finnish III Corps commanded by Hjalmar Siilasvuo.

Aerial support for the offensive was to be provided by Luftflotte 5 based in Norway and the Finnish Air Force. For Operation Silver Fox the Luftwaffe created a new headquarters and moved it into Finland. The Finnish air force fielded about 230 aircraft of various types at the start of hostilities. Luftflotte 5 assigned 60 aircraft to Silver Fox in Finland and employed the Junkers Ju 87, Junkers Ju 88 and Heinkel He 111 aircraft for close air support for the Finnish–German offensive.


Finnish soldiers east of Kestenga in the arctic forest.

Full Campaign-Details at Web-Page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... territory.


Captured Soviet equipment

[GUNDOBALDO08]

I think passing off reskinned infantry and generic artillery as Finland and trying to say that roster is Panzer Corps 2's version of the Winter War is even more insulting.

The title of the thread goes to the heart of it.

You just have to accept Finland in Axis Operations is as representative of the Winter War as much as Finland was representative of the Winter War in Panzer General 2. This is not Finland without Finnish. This is ahistorical bonus German content in a Wehrmacht themed Grand Campaign.

Expecting a full Finnish campaign within the Axis Operations is simply unreasonable, and was never the goal, attempt, or promise made at any point with the content. No piece of marketing says '1939 covers the Winter War' No piece of marketing says a word about Finnish units.

I get that people want a full Winter War piece of content, and maybe they'll get it someday.

Without prejudice to the utmost respect for your work, I honestly have the impression that you are scrambling to defend a clearly wrong choice. You should take greater account of the opinion of the player community. I really think it would be a nice gesture to introduce some auxiliary Finnish units in the two scenarios investigated with the next patch ... this is my clear opinion and always honestly the fact that you insist on defending a patently wrong choice instead of admitting that you have compromised two scenarios (in a 15 long dlc) that could have been beautiful due to the lack of resources to create two or three new units is getting a little boring ...

[Retributarr]

"Kerensky!"... for now... having an abbreviated short-Campaign just to touch base with 'Finland'... should hopefully be a pass for the time being.

"But!"... later on maybe do give it some thought and consideration to doing a "Full-Fledged-Finish-Campaign" and also a "Full-Fledged-Polish-Campaign" as stand-a-lone 'DLC's all by themselves so that it/they somehow can be 'integrated/synchronized' into this "AO- el'-Grand Campaign!".

I personally think that this important semi-major theatre' of operations needs more than just 2 skimpy Scenarios. An exhausting 'Finish-Campaign' with all the 'Bells and Whistles' included... would be absolutely smashingly-terrific!.

[terminator]

In Panzer General 2 Winter War, there were German and Finnish troops :

In Panzer Corps 2, there are two scenarios instead of one Panzer General 2 map. So there are more scenarios with your CORE units instead of less scenarios with auxiliaries.

Do you want to compare the Panzer General 2 Spanish Civil War content to Panzer Corps 2 content? That would be a very interesting comparison to make.

I get that players want more, and that's great. But like I said, if you were expecting full Winter War, look at the cost, size, and scope of Spanish Civil War. Even half that much work is not an amount of work we can just staple onto DLC 1939 that is already packed full of Czech, Saar, Polish, and more content.

In Panzer General 2, there are also two scenarios with the Finns:

- Suomussalami (Blitzkrieg, Germany)
PANZER GENERAL II is designed to give players the opportunity to fight in all types of climates and conditions, and this one presents quite a challenge. The Soviet juggernaut looked unstoppable as itrolled into central Finland late in 1939. The invaders even brought along a brass band to serenade theoppressed workers of the Suomussalmi district.
However, the Finns struck back furiously, surrounding and destroying one Soviet division after it capturedthe town of Suomussalmi, and then giving the same treatment to a second Soviet division that tried torescue the first one. The battle is still used as a training exercise at military academies around the world.
No German troops fought in the actual battle. The Finnish government begged foreign nations for aid,especially Britain and France, and hoped to see some troops arrive in time to fight the Soviets. Although Germany and the Soviet Union had signed a non-aggression pact and acted as unofficial allies during this period, the presence of German troops under a “ volunteer” facade was not at all out of the question. Soldiers and airmen from Germany’s Axis partners Italy and Hungary fought on the Finnish side as volunteers, as didabout 8,000 Swedish troops.

- Viipuri (Onward to Berlin, USSR)
June, 1944 brought a massive Soviet assault on Axis ally Finland, culminating in the “ Black Day of the Finnish Army.” This is the battle covered here, south of Viipuri.
The Finns had refused to launch a direct assault upon Leningrad, officially because they had signed treaties promising never to do so; in reality because they feared the tremendous casualties such anattack would bring. The Soviets could not tolerate the Finnish threat so close to Leningrad, however,and in the summer of 1944 mounted a powerful assault aimed at capturing the city of Viipuri, known tothe Russians as Vyborg.The Finns committed their only armoured division to defend the city, but its worn out captured Soviet vehicles and German-made assault guns were no match for the modern Soviet T-34s and KVs. TheSoviets deployed vast numbers of artillery pieces, and supplied them with mountains of ammunition.Under this barrage the Finnish infantry broke. A German division committed to the front fared evenworse. Soviet victory here soon forced Finland to make a separate peace.


PS: I couldn’t imagine a Soviet campaign without the Finns...

[NightPhoenix]

Pretty much the easiest thing to do was to just get any of the regular infantry sprites re-colour them a bit and slap a Finnish flag on it. Have some/a bunch of them be present as aux units on the map. At least then you could say it would've been too much of a hassle to do more for 2 missions. People would probably still complain, but at least you have a defendable line. Doing absolutely nothing is just outright sad and massively downplays the accomplishments that the Finns achieved during this time period. "Look what happened on the Raate road -> The Germans did this"......Nope. "Oof, Finnish troops tired, let's remove all of them, and have ONLY Germans hold against the Soviet onslaught in one of the biggest battles on the mannerheim line"......

Not including the Finns in these battles, major storytelling/narration flaw in this DLC. If there isn't enough time/money/manpower to put in Finns, it's a defendable argument, but then why design those missions and put those missions in? Now it looks like a half-assed job, whereas 1939 is chock-full of potential exciting missions. If there was 1 more mission in Poland, you can skip both Finnish missions. There is plenty of content in the DLC as is, and 1 mission less really wouldn't be that bad.

[Scrapulous]

I think passing off reskinned infantry and generic artillery as Finland and trying to say that roster is Panzer Corps 2's version of the Winter War is even more insulting.

...

Expecting a full Finnish campaign within the Axis Operations is simply unreasonable, and was never the goal, attempt, or promise made at any point with the content. No piece of marketing says '1939 covers the Winter War' No piece of marketing says a word about Finnish units.

I get that people want a full Winter War piece of content, and maybe they'll get it someday.

Without prejudice to the utmost respect for your work, I honestly have the impression that you are scrambling to defend a clearly wrong choice. You should take greater account of the opinion of the player community. I really think it would be a nice gesture to introduce some auxiliary Finnish units in the two scenarios investigated with the next patch ... this is my clear opinion and always honestly the fact that you insist on defending a patently wrong choice instead of admitting that you have compromised two scenarios (in a 15 long dlc) that could have been beautiful due to the lack of resources to create two or three new units is getting a little boring ...

Wow, that's some strong language ("clearly wrong," "patently wrong"), especially when it leads to such a mild recommendation ("a nice gesture"). I think there's room for disagreement. From my perspective, Kerensky's reasoning makes sense. Each DLC has a development budget. They have to be careful about how much they include.

And finally, there's room for Winter War content in the future ("I get that people want a full Winter War piece of content, and maybe they'll get it someday."), so you might get what you want. I'm not really sure what more you want from Kerensky, aside from some kind of dramatic confession in the village square, sobbing and crawling and begging for forgiveness. "Please, please forgive me! I was wrong, and I regret it! We should have made an infantry unit in Finnish colors (all white, including skin) and added it to the optional ahistorical Finland scenario!" Ha, now I kind of want that, too, but only because the image makes me laugh.

[FunPolice749]

Pretty much the easiest thing to do was to just get any of the regular infantry sprites re-colour them a bit and slap a Finnish flag on it. Have some/a bunch of them be present as aux units on the map. At least then you could say it would've been too much of a hassle to do more for 2 missions. People would probably still complain, but at least you have a defendable line. Doing absolutely nothing is just outright sad and massively downplays the accomplishments that the Finns achieved during this time period. "Look what happened on the Raate road -> The Germans did this"......Nope. "Oof, Finnish troops tired, let's remove all of them, and have ONLY Germans hold against the Soviet onslaught in one of the biggest battles on the mannerheim line"......

Not including the Finns in these battles, major storytelling/narration flaw in this DLC. If there isn't enough time/money/manpower to put in Finns, it's a defendable argument, but then why design those missions and put those missions in? Now it looks like a half-assed job, whereas 1939 is chock-full of potential exciting missions. If there was 1 more mission in Poland, you can skip both Finnish missions. There is plenty of content in the DLC as is, and 1 mission less really wouldn't be that bad.

As the poster above me said, this is a very aggressive way to display your opinion. It’s seems more like an attack rather than trying to provide a convincing argument as to why there should be Finnish troops on those 2 scenarios. I assume comments, replies, and reviews like this do more to hurt the cause they try to push because it creates resentment among people like Kerensky. Imo it’s all better to remain calm and elaborate on why Finnish troops being added would be beneficial (especially since this is a rather small issue).

@Kerensky For me, the biggest reason I would like some Finnish auxiliary units added is that I believe it would add more flavor to these ahistorical scenarios. I think many of us here aren’t wanting a fully fleshed out Finnish Army nor a complete Winter War in just these 2 scenarios. Although I assume based on how many different opinions you’ve heard on the subject I’m sure a handful have said they wanted that (Hopefully we can all agree that its an unrealistic expectation). However, having a small amount of Finnish auxiliaries I think it helps to tie these scenarios together in a couple ways:
1. We’re in Finland helping the Finnish during the Winter War. It’s imo a little strange that there isn’t a single Finnish unit around. I would say it’s like if in the Belgium Scenario from the original campaign the Belgium units we just replaced by French units. In the grand scheme of things it isn’t going to ruin the game or anything but it is weird.
2. In both scenarios there is mention of the Finnish being overstretched and lacking manpower which is why they need our help in actual combat. I think it would be a really good way to visualize this by having only a small group of Finnish units in both of them. Ratte Road could have 1-2 infantry units in the forest next to the north eastern deployment zone and they would be great for blocking the road in that forest but they won’t do it all on their own. Meanwhile in Taipale you could easy show the Finnish Infantry only able to cling to few positions while numerous river crossings are left wide open. In both scenarios I think it could really help sell why the Finnish are in need of help.
3. It could be a way to help make sure the scenarios aren’t to tough. This is probably a bit useless now (and probably is since the launch of 1939) but if people thought these scenarios were to tough then a few auxiliaries to help soften the blows could be a great way to help in that regard.
4. It does finally get the Finnish as a faction for scenario creators. This would heavily depend on how much they get but it is better than nothing. And seeing as we may not see the Finnish for a while unless AO 1941 does something with them this could be the only other chance to at leadt put a few things in.

Personally I think it would be a missed opportunity to not add a few Finnish auxiliary into these scenarios. Especially since it would hopefully not be overly difficult due to many of the models already being in game which makes it easier to create them.

[marianapq]

And how has everything gone? It worked?

[Kerensky]

As I said in a different thread, it's their right as paying customers to complain. It was true about the update service, it's equally true about content critiques.
I haven't read anything too nasty, relative to your average toxic online community, so it's not a problem if they are more than a little harsh.

All I can say is the original content plan for 1939 ended with Scenario 12 Denmark

I took it upon myself to bulk out that number, and after the mixed reception of Spanish AI. Well I worked within the means available. If people want to throw up such a fuss over optional extras, because they care so much about the Winter War, have at it.

I just looked at an average scenario count DLC, wanted to pump it up to 'above average', and wanted to visit a location that was completely missing from Panzer Corps 2 base game. If that means no Finnish units, it means no Finnish units. People still got the opportunity to fight a huge variety of enemies in 1939 (Czech, French, Polish, Soviet, and Danish), and now at least a few players have a very beastly limited quantity of prototype KV-2 as a reward to bring into future fights.

To have all that, it's a fair trade to have to weather some criticism over it.

And it's still feedback to keep in mind in future. If and when the Axis Operations reaches the Balkans... there is now a 0% chance that Italians will be absent from there. Finnish feedback was strong enough to ensure that. What form they will take, especially given AI ally feedback. Well if and when we get there, I guess we'll find out.

[GUNDOBALDO08]

As I said in a different thread, it's their right as paying customers to complain. It was true about the update service, it's equally true about content critiques.
I haven't read anything too nasty, relative to your average toxic online community, so it's not a problem if they are more than a little harsh.

All I can say is the original content plan for 1939 ended with Scenario 12 Denmark

I took it upon myself to bulk out that number, and after the mixed reception of Spanish AI. Well I worked within the means available. If people want to throw up such a fuss over optional extras, because they care so much about the Winter War, have at it.

I just looked at an average scenario count DLC, wanted to pump it up to 'above average', and wanted to visit a location that was completely missing from Panzer Corps 2 base game. If that means no Finnish units, it means no Finnish units. People still got the opportunity to fight a huge variety of enemies in 1939 (Czech, French, Polish, Soviet, and Danish), and now at least a few players have a very beastly limited quantity of prototype KV-2 as a reward to bring into future fights.

To have all that, it's a fair trade to have to weather some criticism over it.

And it's still feedback to keep in mind in future. If and when the Axis Operations reaches the Balkans... there is now a 0% chance that Italians will be absent from there. Finnish feedback was strong enough to ensure that. What form they will take, especially given AI ally feedback. Well if and when we get there, I guess we'll find out.

[GUNDOBALDO08]

As I said in a different thread, it's their right as paying customers to complain. It was true about the update service, it's equally true about content critiques.
I haven't read anything too nasty, relative to your average toxic online community, so it's not a problem if they are more than a little harsh.

All I can say is the original content plan for 1939 ended with Scenario 12 Denmark

I took it upon myself to bulk out that number, and after the mixed reception of Spanish AI. Well I worked within the means available. If people want to throw up such a fuss over optional extras, because they care so much about the Winter War, have at it.

I just looked at an average scenario count DLC, wanted to pump it up to 'above average', and wanted to visit a location that was completely missing from Panzer Corps 2 base game. If that means no Finnish units, it means no Finnish units. People still got the opportunity to fight a huge variety of enemies in 1939 (Czech, French, Polish, Soviet, and Danish), and now at least a few players have a very beastly limited quantity of prototype KV-2 as a reward to bring into future fights.

To have all that, it's a fair trade to have to weather some criticism over it.

And it's still feedback to keep in mind in future. If and when the Axis Operations reaches the Balkans... there is now a 0% chance that Italians will be absent from there. Finnish feedback was strong enough to ensure that. What form they will take, especially given AI ally feedback. Well if and when we get there, I guess we'll find out.

Thanks Kerensky I very much appreciated this response and the promise to take into account the community's request for more space for non-German auxiliary units. This bodes well for future dlc ... even if I still find it hard to accept the missed opportunity to play the real winter war even if only for two scenarios ...

[FunPolice749]

As I said in a different thread, it's their right as paying customers to complain. It was true about the update service, it's equally true about content critiques.
I haven't read anything too nasty, relative to your average toxic online community, so it's not a problem if they are more than a little harsh.

All I can say is the original content plan for 1939 ended with Scenario 12 Denmark

I took it upon myself to bulk out that number, and after the mixed reception of Spanish AI. Well I worked within the means available. If people want to throw up such a fuss over optional extras, because they care so much about the Winter War, have at it.

I just looked at an average scenario count DLC, wanted to pump it up to 'above average', and wanted to visit a location that was completely missing from Panzer Corps 2 base game. If that means no Finnish units, it means no Finnish units. People still got the opportunity to fight a huge variety of enemies in 1939 (Czech, French, Polish, Soviet, and Danish), and now at least a few players have a very beastly limited quantity of prototype KV-2 as a reward to bring into future fights.

To have all that, it's a fair trade to have to weather some criticism over it.

And it's still feedback to keep in mind in future. If and when the Axis Operations reaches the Balkans... there is now a 0% chance that Italians will be absent from there. Finnish feedback was strong enough to ensure that. What form they will take, especially given AI ally feedback. Well if and when we get there, I guess we'll find out.

Whenever I have a complaint with games I find it's often best to be calm and well thought out on complaints rather than just attacking people barring some specific scenarios (like a company purposely splitting one dlc into like 3 installments or something super scummy like that). I'm glad nothing to severe has come from 39 because personally it's been my favorite thing to come out of PzC 2 outside of defender of reich. It's always nice to hear the devs are listening to feedback though. Hopefully that means in the future you guys could find a way to some Finnish units into a future dlc if these scenarios aren't touched again.

[NightPhoenix]

As the poster above me said, this is a very aggressive way to display your opinion. It’s seems more like an attack rather than trying to provide a convincing argument as to why there should be Finnish troops on those 2 scenarios. I assume comments, replies, and reviews like this do more to hurt the cause they try to push because it creates resentment among people like Kerensky. Imo it’s all better to remain calm and elaborate on why Finnish troops being added would be beneficial (especially since this is a rather small issue).

@Kerensky For me, the biggest reason I would like some Finnish auxiliary units added is that I believe it would add more flavor to these ahistorical scenarios. I think many of us here aren’t wanting a fully fleshed out Finnish Army nor a complete Winter War in just these 2 scenarios. Although I assume based on how many different opinions you’ve heard on the subject I’m sure a handful have said they wanted that (Hopefully we can all agree that its an unrealistic expectation). However, having a small amount of Finnish auxiliaries I think it helps to tie these scenarios together in a couple ways:
1. We’re in Finland helping the Finnish during the Winter War. It’s imo a little strange that there isn’t a single Finnish unit around. I would say it’s like if in the Belgium Scenario from the original campaign the Belgium units we just replaced by French units. In the grand scheme of things it isn’t going to ruin the game or anything but it is weird.
2. In both scenarios there is mention of the Finnish being overstretched and lacking manpower which is why they need our help in actual combat. I think it would be a really good way to visualize this by having only a small group of Finnish units in both of them. Ratte Road could have 1-2 infantry units in the forest next to the north eastern deployment zone and they would be great for blocking the road in that forest but they won’t do it all on their own. Meanwhile in Taipale you could easy show the Finnish Infantry only able to cling to few positions while numerous river crossings are left wide open. In both scenarios I think it could really help sell why the Finnish are in need of help.
3. It could be a way to help make sure the scenarios aren’t to tough. This is probably a bit useless now (and probably is since the launch of 1939) but if people thought these scenarios were to tough then a few auxiliaries to help soften the blows could be a great way to help in that regard.
4. It does finally get the Finnish as a faction for scenario creators. This would heavily depend on how much they get but it is better than nothing. And seeing as we may not see the Finnish for a while unless AO 1941 does something with them this could be the only other chance to at leadt put a few things in.

Personally I think it would be a missed opportunity to not add a few Finnish auxiliary into these scenarios. Especially since it would hopefully not be overly difficult due to many of the models already being in game which makes it easier to create them.

Nah, it's not like that. I just strongly feel that it's a wrong decision, and i can't see any solid/reasonable argument for not including them. It's like doing Axis operations 1941: Army group south: But only using Rumanians, and then doing missions around Brody and Kiev. It's like not including any Italian units in Africa, or not using Americans in Operation overlord. The Finns were hands down +99% the contributors in the Winter War. Not including them.....just how? It's not just about Flavor like you put on some steak as an option. Leaving the finns out is like putting the flavor on but keeping the steak out.
Some people use different speech than others, and might seem more affront or aggressive, but maybe it's better to assume that they have good interests (and in this case, interests of having a good game) at heart. It doesn't mean they aren't calm either.
Also, just because it's a minor deal for you, doesn't mean that within the context of the game it isn't something that other people might find more important. I think the narrating/storytelling aspect of a game is a very important part of it, maybe even more important than gameplay. At which point something like this might actually be a pretty big deal, because in terms of narration, it doesn't make any sense.

[Rifraff]

I want to play with my own core and not auxiliaries. What would a few Finn units have added to the scenario? I would much rather attack and defend with my own units. Anything else will be mostly used as cannon fodder or not used at all..

[FunPolice749]

I want to play with my own core and not auxiliaries. What would a few Finn units have added to the scenario? I would much rather attack and defend with my own units. Anything else will be mostly used as cannon fodder or not used at all..

For me having a small group of auxiliary Finnish units would’ve sold me on the scenarios a bit more. Both scenarios briefings talk about how badly overextended the Finnish are which is the reason why our force gets so involved. If in Taipale you had say 2-3 Finnish Infantry holding 1-2 bridge crossings while other remain completely open I feel like that would be a great visual way of showing how badly the Finnish are doing to where they can’t even form a cohesive defensive line. Gameplay wise your right they probably don’t add that much but some cannon fodder or send into the meat grinder is never that bad a thing from a player perspective

[UrbanKelly]

Pretty much the easiest thing to do was to just get any of the regular infantry sprites re-colour them a bit and slap a Finnish flag on it. Have some/a bunch of them be present as aux units on the map. At least then you could say it would've been too much of a hassle to do more for 2 missions. People would probably still complain, but at least you have a defendable line. Doing absolutely nothing is just outright sad and massively downplays the accomplishments that the Finns achieved during this time period. "Look what happened on the Raate road -> The Germans did this"......Nope. "Oof, Finnish troops tired, let's remove all of them, and have ONLY Germans hold against the Soviet onslaught in one of the biggest battles on the mannerheim line"......

Not including the Finns in these battles, major storytelling/narration flaw in this DLC. If there isn't enough time/money/manpower to put in Finns, it's a defendable argument, but then why design those missions and put those missions in? Now it looks like a half-assed job, whereas 1939 is chock-full of potential exciting missions. If there was 1 more mission in Poland, you can skip both Finnish missions. There is plenty of content in the DLC as is, and 1 mission less really wouldn't be that bad.

As the poster above me said, this is a very aggressive way to display your opinion. It’s seems more like an attack rather than trying to provide a convincing argument as to why there should be Finnish troops on those 2 scenarios. I assume comments, replies, and reviews like this do more to hurt the cause they try to push because it creates resentment among people like Kerensky. Imo it’s all better to remain calm and elaborate on why Finnish troops being added would be beneficial (especially since this is a rather small issue).

@Kerensky For me, the biggest reason I would like some Finnish auxiliary units added is that I believe it would add more flavor to these ahistorical scenarios. I think many of us here aren’t wanting a fully fleshed out Finnish Army nor a complete Winter War in just these 2 scenarios. Although I assume based on how many different opinions you’ve heard on the subject I’m sure a handful have said they wanted that (Hopefully we can all agree that its an unrealistic expectation). However, having a small amount of Finnish auxiliaries I think it helps to tie these scenarios together in a couple ways:
1. We’re in Finland helping the Finnish during the Winter War. It’s imo a little strange that there isn’t a single Finnish unit around. I would say it’s like if in the Belgium Scenario from the original campaign the Belgium units we just replaced by French units. In the grand scheme of things it isn’t going to ruin the game or anything but it is weird.
2. In both scenarios there is mention of the Finnish being overstretched and lacking manpower which is why they need our help in actual combat. I think it would be a really good way to visualize this by having only a small group of Finnish units in both of them. Ratte Road could have 1-2 infantry units in the forest next to the north eastern deployment zone and they would be great for blocking the road in that forest but they won’t do it all on their own. Meanwhile in Taipale you could easy show the Finnish Infantry only able to cling to few positions while numerous river crossings are left wide open. In both scenarios I think it could really help sell why the Finnish are in need of help.
3. It could be a way to help make sure the scenarios aren’t to tough. This is probably a bit useless now (and probably is since the launch of 1939) but if people thought these scenarios were to tough then a few auxiliaries to help soften the blows could be a great way to help in that regard.
4. It does finally get the Finnish as a faction for scenario creators. This would heavily depend on how much they get but it is better than nothing. And seeing as we may not see the Finnish for a while unless AO 1941 does something with them this could be the only other chance to at leadt put a few things in.

Personally I think it would be a missed opportunity to not add a few Finnish auxiliary into these scenarios. Especially since it would hopefully not be overly difficult due to many of the models already being in game which makes it easier to create them.

Thanks for the info. The state and government are very important and very often contradictory institutions of the political system of the world. I recently read about this in an essay on the page https://writingbros.com/essay-examples/government/ They say that technological and scientific advances in history were the main motivators of the transition from traditional society to modern society, but German sociologist Max Weber argued that this change it was rather a shift in ideas. It is important to listen to Weber now in order to understand modern society and government games.

[lueokon]

Unlike a successful system like the return of Degrees of Victory through bonus objectives and Commendation Point rewards, a troubled and mixed received AI Ally system doesn't get to coast into the next DLC. Your feedback in action, it matters