AO1942 and Beyond

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BaronVonKrieg
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by BaronVonKrieg »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm
Bee1976 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:26 pm So back to the topic :)

@Kerensky
Wagner, we need him back...some kind of "wunderwaffe zombie wagner" would be ok :mrgreen: but really we need him....

and well, im not sure if you are allowed to post this information, but some kind of roadmap (not detailed) for 2021 or the times after gc would be really nice. maybe in the next tea time with slitherine ? :D
Slitherine doesn't like Roadmaps, and I actually agree with them on this principle.

I like the idea of a Roadmap, because I've seen it abused so poorly in other games, and it can really, really backfire (Anthem). I mean, a Roadmap is a pretty bold promise to deliver on very specific content on a very specific timetable. And I just got finishing ranting in this thread about just how dangerous such a plan is.

It lacks flexibility in that it is now a commitment to make XYZ content, where not having a roadmap has freedom to maneuver and adjust if external or internal plans changes.
It also lacks flexibility in that it's setting hard deadlines, and as soon as a product starts to under-deliver content or full on entirely miss a promised deadline, in comes the 'game in trouble' brigade. Granted, they're often right, but still. :P

I am very much a 'I don't make promises I can't keep' kind of person, and as much as I would luv the idea to lay out grand plans in a really ambitious road map... It's safer and a better work ethic to take a long project journey one step at a time. Each DLC gets it's time in the spotlight as it needs to be the best it can be. Being chained to a roadmap can easily cause problems. If XYZ asset for ABC DLC is not ready on time... do you release without that asset, or do you delay the product and potentially affect the entire roadmap with a pushback?

Player feedback is also affecting upcoming content all the time to. Not in a bad way (Abandon Axis Operations to pivot to non-German Campaigning as a knee-jerk reaction) but in other subtle ways that a Roadmap might not allow. For example, if we road mapped a 'catalog of Nemesis' and showcased a bunch of these opponents like Vega in SCW, De Gaulle 1940, khrushchev 1942, Zhukov 1943... well not everyone is happy with Nemesis, so we've had the flexibility to not always have a Nemesis based on feedback. Also, player desire to influence the war's outcome wasn't part of the initial plan, but it's being (slowly) adapted into the content, with special Meteor event from Sea Lion, and the raid on the Kremlin yielding something other than just a retreat to Rzhev.

Anyways ranting aside, all I can say is I'm very motivated to continue the New Grand Campaign. This might sound really stupid, but I also want to see what happens to our characters. :D
And from a creative writing perspective, it's a ton of fun to have the characters interact with real historical figures. How Rommel was written in 1940 was definitely well received, even if players were annoyed at how he 'played' the Abbeville scenario... Have to admit though, he does a good job helping encircle Lille.

But that's because Lille is a very complex set of instructions laid out for Rommel's units, where Abbeville asks Rommel AI to 'think on its feet' which is a challenge it wasn't quite up to (given the fact that enemy reinforcements in that map are randomized, and no complex set of instructions could be laid out in advance to accommodate for this).
Wow, we really don't appreciate this kind of community involvement enough, this feels very nice to have these kinds of interactions with the staff, i aint active in forums about other games but panzer corps got me so involved haha
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky »

BaronVonKrieg wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:09 pm Wow, we really don't appreciate this kind of community involvement enough, this feels very nice to have these kinds of interactions with the staff, i aint active in forums about other games but panzer corps got me so involved haha
The changelog that comes directly from player tester feedback for the latest DLC alone was over 100 entries. :)
Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni »

Retributarr wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:41 pm https://d-daywwiibattleofnormandy.weebl ... dings.html
WWII: Battle of Normandy_ The 4th Infantry Divisions Unopposed Landings

Utah Beach

-Casualties on Utah Beach, were the lightest of any beach, with 197 out of the roughly 23,000 men that landed. The 4th Infantry Division troops landing at Utah Beach found themselves in the wrong positions because of a current that pushed their landing craft to the southeast. Instead of landing at Tare Green and Uncle Red sectors, they came ashore at Victor sector, relatively little German opposition was encountered. The 4th Infantry Division was able to press inland relatively easily over beach exits that had been seized from the inland side by the 502nd and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments of the 101st Airborne Division. This was partially by accident, because their planned landing was further along the beach. (Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt Jr., the Assistant Commander of the 4th Division, upon discovering the landings were off course, became famous for saying "We will start the war from right here.") By early afternoon, the 4th Infantry Division had succeeded in linking up with elements of the 101st. American casualties were light, the troops were able to press inward much faster than expected, making it a near-complete success
What's your point here? That despite very bad luck leading to scattered paratroops who then had to act entirely on their own initiative and judgement, and troops hitting the wrong place on the beach the american troops on the ground still achieved their goals through a comprehensive display of skill, a good sense of opportunity and decisive leadership that was able to take the initiative and react appropriately to things not going as planned? You're yet again if at all arguing against your original claim.

Hint: German resistance was weak practically right across Utah Beach. 4th ID hitting Tare Green and Uncle Red would have still seen them blow right through those weak german defenses anyway. Overall, the Americans if at all were unlucky, with bad paradrops and complications in the landings hampering their efforts and leaving them well short of what they should have achieved against the lackluster german defenses in the region.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr »

The situation in Normandy – the German Perspective:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/milita ... tanks.html

What were the effects on the the Panzertruppen?

To keep the destination of the landings secret, a deception plan, Operation Fortitude, was mounted which led the Germans to believe that the main target was the Pas de Calais (Fortitude South)

Image
Tank-landing ships unloading supplies on Omaha Beach, preparing for the break-out from Normandy

When the landings finally began, only 14 of the 50 German divisions in France faced the Allies. Resistance was hard on most beaches, yet Omaha was the only one where the success of the Allied mission was in serious doubt.

Prior to the Normandy landings, Germany had at its disposal 50 divisions in France and the Low Countries. Of that number, nine Panzer Divisions and an SS Panzergrenadier Division were stationed in the West when the Allies landed in Normandy on 6 June

Only three of these divisions were available to repel the landing, that is, to face D-Day in full battle readiness.

The remaining six divisions were still being refitted after their pulling out from the Eastern Front and, as such, did not meet the Normandy landings at full strength. Status reports often vary, as additional Panzers were commonly added to a unit right before combat. that were the effects on the the Panzertruppen?... On the Possibility of Eliminating the Enemy Beachhead with the Available Panzer Forces.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It does not appear to be possible to throw the Allies back into the sea with their present forces and equipment as long as:
a) The guns from about 60 to 70 warships can fire undisturbed with aircraft spotters
b)
The effect of the Allied airforce can be concentrated unhindered on this limited space.

The massive naval formation the Allies had brought with them to Normandy enabled them to support their units from both sea and air. To further hinder German efforts, they could focus that massive firepower in a relatively small area.

No more panzer units may be sent into combat against the beachhead than can be resupplied at any given time.

Supplies still have not been guaranteed for the three Panzer Divisions that have already been committed.
– According to Guderian, there were not enough provisions to resupply more than the 3 previously mentioned divisions. This was an undisputed indicator of the supply status amongst the German ranks in 1944.

Image
Allied invasion plans and German positions in Normandy.

1944 and the Battle for Normandy have highlighted the toll that Germany had paid for fighting such a prolonged war. Clear evidence to the fact that Germany, as well as the Axis as a whole, did not possess the provisions for a long and lengthy war effort, as both the lack of personnel* and equipment were clearly displayed during the Normandy Invasion.

*German records, in fact, indicate that the average personnel complement was at about 50% in the spring of 1944.
Bee1976
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Bee1976 »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm [...]
Thx for that detailed feedback! I can understand your point of view on this, but uhm...well i was just hoping.... :oops:

Oh, and i agree to baronvonkrieg. Most games/studios doenst have that communication/playerbase involvement. Its something nice and special here, even if i dont understand all that is written here (my english....sry :( )
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm And from a creative writing perspective, it's a ton of fun to have the characters interact with real historical figures. How Rommel was written in 1940 was definitely well received, even if players were annoyed at how he 'played' the Abbeville scenario... Have to admit though, he does a good job helping encircle Lille.

But that's because Lille is a very complex set of instructions laid out for Rommel's units, where Abbeville asks Rommel AI to 'think on its feet' which is a challenge it wasn't quite up to (given the fact that enemy reinforcements in that map are randomized, and no complex set of instructions could be laid out in advance to accommodate for this).
Speaking of Rommel, is it possible to improve the 7th Panzer Division's AI on the one you defensively fight De Gaulle's 4th Armoured Division (can't remember its name)? They would fall back to HQ to replenish losses, but once all VH were captured they won't come back to help you defend them, leaving you yourself to do all the bidding. Also, when you disable FoW they would charge at enemy reinforcements line even if there is no VH to claim.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky »

Bee1976 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:45 pm
Thx for that detailed feedback! I can understand your point of view on this, but uhm...well i was just hoping.... :oops:
If it makes you feel better, there certainly is an internal plan going on. We aren't just totally winging it from one movie to the next.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Bee1976 »

Hehe, i wasnt hoping that there might be an internal plan (ofc there is one). I was hoping for insight in it ;)
Kerensky
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kerensky »

Bee1976 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:42 am Hehe, i wasnt hoping that there might be an internal plan (ofc there is one). I was hoping for insight in it ;)
You say 'of course there is' and yet sometimes there isn't... (Star Wars)
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr »

To add 'Historical-Flavor' as well as 'Deeper-Immersion' into the Game, why-not include some of the 'Goings-On'... to flesh-out and stamp an imprint into the consciousness of the player to get him into the moment of the 'Time-Period' of the Game that the player is currently in.

Secret Allied Diplomatic Meetings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Conference_(1942)
EG: Moscow Conference (1942)(Codename:BRACELET)

...Took place between the major Allies of World War II from August 12, 1942 to August 17, 1942.

Churchill reported back to London that the first two hours 'were bleak and sombre'. Stalin reported grave problems on the Eastern Front and that the Germans were making 'a tremendous effort to get to Baku and Stalingrad'. The conversation moved on to the possibility of a Second Front in 1942, which the Soviets were hoping for. Churchill reported that after an 'exhaustive Anglo-American examination', the western allies did not feel able to launch an attack across the English Channel in September 1942. However, he was able to report that preparations were in hand for a landing by 48 divisions in 1943. [For Operation Torch?] Churchill added that even by the time the 1943 operation was ready it was conceivable that the Germans may be able to field a stronger force to oppose them. At this the minutes of the meeting note, 'Stalin's face crumpled into a frown'.

Churchill further went on to the subject of a Second Front in 1942. He relayed to Stalin that the Western Allies had decided on another operation, as France was not the only area to attack. He had been authorised to share this secret by President Roosevelt with Stalin. At this, the minutes record, 'M. Stalin sat up and grinned'. Churchill then proceeded to outline the details of the Anglo-American landings in French North Africa, Operation Torch.

------------ After-Thought additional Commentary!-----------

The British were nervous that Stalin and Hitler might make separate peace terms [Ret: Perhaps... this "Very-Generous"... "Arctic-Convoy-Programme"... was very-much dictated by just that desperate need to keep Russia in the war against Germany... and for Stalin not to settle on 'Peace-Terms' with Hitler!.] ; Stalin insisted that would not happen. Churchill explained how Arctic convoys bringing munitions to Russia had been intercepted by the Germans; There was a delay now so that future convoys would be better protected. He apologetically explained there would be no second front this year—no British-American invasion of France—which Stalin had been urgently requesting for months. The will was there, said Churchill, but there was not enough American troops, not enough tanks, not enough shipping, not enough air superiority.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr »

U-Boat Arctic Convoy Interdiction Naval-Action:

The British were nervous that Stalin and Hitler might make separate peace terms [Ret: Perhaps... this "Very-Generous"... "Arctic-Convoy-Programme"... was very-much dictated by just that desperate need to keep Russia in the war against Germany... and for Stalin not to settle on 'Peace-Terms' with Hitler!.]

It might be an "Idea" to have... a "U-Boat-Campaign"...an "Arctic-Convoy-Interdiction-Programme"... to make an attempt for or by the 'Germans' to weaken the ability of the 'Russians' to keep resisting Germanys effort to win the war in Russia... either by 'Outright-Victory'... or a 'Peace-Settlement'.

If successful!... then the 'War in the West'... now becomes much more difficult!.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Vorskl »

Retributarr wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:07 pm To add 'Historical-Flavor' as well as 'Deeper-Immersion' into the Game, why-not include some of the 'Goings-On'... to flesh-out and stamp an imprint into the consciousness of the player to get him into the moment of the 'Time-Period' of the Game that the player is currently in.

The British were nervous that Stalin and Hitler might make separate peace terms [Ret: Perhaps... this "Very-Generous"... "Arctic-Convoy-Programme"... was very-much dictated by just that desperate need to keep Russia in the war against Germany... and for Stalin not to settle on 'Peace-Terms' with Hitler!.] ; Stalin insisted that would not happen. Churchill explained how Arctic convoys bringing munitions to Russia had been intercepted by the Germans; There was a delay now so that future convoys would be better protected. He apologetically explained there would be no second front this year—no British-American invasion of France—which Stalin had been urgently requesting for months. The will was there, said Churchill, but there was not enough American troops, not enough tanks, not enough shipping, not enough air superiority.
A nice theory, but fails to address the point why Hitler would do so in August? Stalin was very nervous as the army seemed to haphazardly run away from Wehrmacht (infamous order 227 was published in late July); Since USSR lost West Ukraine oilfields and West Siberian wont be discovered till 1960s, Grozniy-Maikop-Baku were the main and the only sources of oil for the USSR. If Germans took that oil or destroyed the fields, its' the game over for the war: no amount of lend-lease would be sufficient to replace 70% of Soviet oil that came from that region.
So, Stalin knows he's desperate and Hitler knows that; moreover Wehrmacht is 'almost' there - the key city of Rostov has already fallen, Luftwaffe just destroyed the main soviet refinery at Saratov and keep bombing anything oil-related between Volgograd and Baku. USA is being humiliated by Japan, UK cannot secure the seas (PQ convoys and Trans-Atlantic). Ok, North Africa is stuck because of Italians... but nevertheless in August 1942 the situation for Germany looks very good - the mere hundred kilometers to get the oil and the Eastern Front is won (immediately releasing resources for the other fronts). So.. why the truce now?

Of course, WWII is the large event and many interconnected parts, not a single battle was decisive, but in the late August 1942 German alpine troops were literally kilometers from the victory as they started winning the mountain passes and push Soviet troops down (i.e. South / South West towards the Black Sea). If they successed, the Soviet troops along the Black Sea would be encircled, creating a huge irreparable gap in the front towards Baku.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Retributarr »

"Vorskl"

A tremendous detailing of the actual events at that point in the war!. "Great-Stuff!!!"... your input is most and much appreciated!. Thank-You!... for correcting any 'Mis-perceptions' that I have erroneously put down into the 'Forum-Column'... I am 'Not-Perfect'... though!... I always aim to be!.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by monkspider »

This is a very fascinating thread! I am glad that Kerensky is open to doing some ahistorical paths in the future, we will just have wait and see exactly how it plays out but based on the quality of the AO series so far, I am sure it is going to be lit. 8)
Magni
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Magni »

monkspider wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:26 pm This is a very fascinating thread! I am glad that Kerensky is open to doing some ahistorical paths in the future, we will just have wait and see exactly how it plays out but based on the quality of the AO series so far, I am sure it is going to be lit. 8)
Well it's fascinating just how completely delusional ideas some people get.

I love this "huge irreparable gap" that Vorskls utterly impractical proposal of the already terminally exhausted and overstretched german troops at Maikop would create with "jsut one more push"... what with the fact that actually exploiting this "huge irreparable" gap would then require said already exhausted and terminally overstretched troops to then cross several hundred kilometres of the Caucasus range with virtually no infrastructure and little in the way of passes - those are north-south for the most part, not west-east - to actually get over to Baku. :roll:

Yeah, by the time the sorry few remains of that insanity reached Baku? The freakin' local police department would be able to knock them over and march the poor wretches into captivity (which would look to them like freakin' luxury after the hell they just went through), no need to get the garrison involved. This whole plan is typical of someone looking at a map and painting a few nice-looking arrows while not actually paying any attention to half the information he's seeing.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Edmon »

Magni wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:08 am
monkspider wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:26 pm This is a very fascinating thread! I am glad that Kerensky is open to doing some ahistorical paths in the future, we will just have wait and see exactly how it plays out but based on the quality of the AO series so far, I am sure it is going to be lit. 8)
Well it's fascinating just how completely delusional ideas some people get.

I love this "huge irreparable gap" that Vorskls utterly impractical proposal of the already terminally exhausted and overstretched german troops at Maikop would create with "jsut one more push"... what with the fact that actually exploiting this "huge irreparable" gap would then require said already exhausted and terminally overstretched troops to then cross several hundred kilometres of the Caucasus range with virtually no infrastructure and little in the way of passes - those are north-south for the most part, not west-east - to actually get over to Baku. :roll:

Yeah, by the time the sorry few remains of that insanity reached Baku? The freakin' local police department would be able to knock them over and march the poor wretches into captivity (which would look to them like freakin' luxury after the hell they just went through), no need to get the garrison involved. This whole plan is typical of someone looking at a map and painting a few nice-looking arrows while not actually paying any attention to half the information he's seeing.
This kind of post is not acceptable. Do not attack other posters, don't mock other posters and keep your posts respectful at all times.

Thank you.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by bendtheknee »

Hello,

Two questions about the next opération :

- Are we going to stay in the year 1941, dl the unit core 1940 on another theater of war than russia; east afriqua with italian or japan way like SCW (wich ends the 07/1941) or go to the year 1942 ?

- If we going to 1942, is the dl core unit from 1941 will be weakened (lossing hero, expérience, unit randomly) ?I know that each operation is designed to be played separately, but I prefer to use the possibility to import my built units from the scw, the problem is that now the units are too powerful (generalissimus and trophie of war trait).
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Bee1976 »

bendtheknee wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:56 am Hello,

Two questions about the next opération :

- Are we going to stay in the year 1941, dl the unit core 1940 on another theater of war than russia; east afriqua with italian or japan way like SCW (wich ends the 07/1941) or go to the year 1942 ?

- If we going to 1942, is the dl core unit from 1941 will be weakened (lossing hero, expérience, unit randomly) ?I know that each operation is designed to be played separately, but I prefer to use the possibility to import my built units from the scw, the problem is that now the units are too powerful (generalissimus and trophie of war trait).
If would assume we go to '42. I wouldnt enjoy loosing exp, heroes or units. For me its all about buildung up a nice core force. You can select new traits with each dlc even if you import your core, maybe no trphies and some "hard" negatives might help.

Im on my 7h generallissimus playthrough* right now (yes i know...im desperatly waiting for the next dlc(s)...) but with every playthrough i raise the difficulty for me. So i dont play with trophies since the 2nd and "choose bad" negative traits and or challenges.

*hopefully it will be my 7th finished playthrough. I finished 6 from scw to 41, but well i startet way mpre tries, butz some combinations are to hard and i had to stop that attempt.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by Kiane »

Magni wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:08 am
monkspider wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:26 pm This is a very fascinating thread! I am glad that Kerensky is open to doing some ahistorical paths in the future, we will just have wait and see exactly how it plays out but based on the quality of the AO series so far, I am sure it is going to be lit. 8)
Well it's fascinating just how completely delusional ideas some people get.

I love this "huge irreparable gap" that Vorskls utterly impractical proposal of the already terminally exhausted and overstretched german troops at Maikop would create with "jsut one more push"... what with the fact that actually exploiting this "huge irreparable" gap would then require said already exhausted and terminally overstretched troops to then cross several hundred kilometres of the Caucasus range with virtually no infrastructure and little in the way of passes - those are north-south for the most part, not west-east - to actually get over to Baku. :roll:

Yeah, by the time the sorry few remains of that insanity reached Baku? The freakin' local police department would be able to knock them over and march the poor wretches into captivity (which would look to them like freakin' luxury after the hell they just went through), no need to get the garrison involved. This whole plan is typical of someone looking at a map and painting a few nice-looking arrows while not actually paying any attention to half the information he's seeing.
I will agree with you that reaching Baku is in the realm of fantasy, because even if you ignore the Soviets, it's close enough to the British that it's going to be an issue, but getting within bombing range of it sounds historically plausible to me, as well as capturing Grozny. The problem the Germans had in Fall Blau is that they actually didn't prioritize this front in terms of reinforcements, with a disproportionate quantity of the replacements going to Army Group North and Center. Both these army groups actually increased in size, more than covering their losses by substantial amounts, whereas Army Group South, now split into A and B, shrunk continuously in size because their losses were not being replenished. Had the Germans redirected the reinforcements earmarked for AGC and AGN, then it's not implausible to believe they would have taken Stalingrad as well as Grozny. I haven't really looked into German aircraft ranges and the distances required to bomb Baku, but it doesn't sound too outrageous. When you consider that the Soviets received 95% of their oil from the Caucasus at the time, you can see that this would be a real problem for them.

As far as alternate history goes, this one has always struck me as the most interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pike
"Operation Pike was the code-name for a strategic bombing plan overseen by Air Commodore John Slessor against the Soviet Union by the Anglo-French alliance.[2] British military planning against the Soviet Union occurred during the first two years of the Second World War, when, despite Soviet neutrality, the British and French came to the conclusion that the German–Soviet pact made Stalin an accomplice of Hitler.[3] The plan was designed to destroy the Soviet oil industry to cause the collapse of the Soviet economy and deprive Germany of Soviet resources. "

The Soviets perhaps would have approached the 2nd Molotov-Ribbentrop pact talks with more interest had their vital oil been bombed.
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Re: AO1942 and Beyond

Post by asuser »

Is there already a forecast when a new DLC will appear?

In this context, it would be great if there is coming an information about which errors/bugs have been eliminated, possibly with a new patch.
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