Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

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VirgilInTheSKY
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Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

Title says all, had one of my destroyers taking damage when shooting at a coastal settlement with an infantry inside it, which looks as if the crews had driven their ship into that town to shoot point blank and thus get shot back.
Or maybe add a switch ability for them, melee mode like PTs that melee in torpedo attack, only able to engage naval targets, and ranged mode for bombardement in long range against all, say 3, as that's the range for 4~6 inch field guns in game, similar caliber for destroyer guns.

btw, the Bf 109Z and He 111Z are displaying their full name (the one above their status) also as only "Bf 109Z""He 111Z" instead of "Messerschimitt Bf 109 Z""Henkel He 111 Z" in the purchase menu like other german aircrafts, which I guess was an oversight when implenting these new units?
Tassadar
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by Tassadar »

Naval combat in general requires a grand redesign since Panzer Corps 1, since right now it is really unbalanced and the destroyers getting damaged by infantry during bombardment are just a small part of various small issues. That said, it is only a marginal fragment of the campaigns so far. My guess is that if Pacific General style campaign was ever released (which I really hope will happen at one point), then it would require modifications in areas such as this to make it more playable. For now it does not look like a priority and efforts seem to be better spent on ground/aerial combat.
R2G2
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by R2G2 »

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:58 pm Title says all, had one of my destroyers taking damage when shooting at a coastal settlement...
Hey VirgilInTheSky and great suggestion! I just uploaded a Ranged Destroyers Mod to Steam. I kept the range at 1 hex because anything greater started to become OP against Subs. I've attached the file to this post if you want to make changes or if you don't use play through Steam. Unzip the file then drop it in your Mods directory and it should be good to go.
Tassadar wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:21 pm Naval combat in general requires a grand redesign since Panzer Corps 1...
What other Naval aspects do you feel need to be redesigned?
Attachments
RangedDestroyers.zip
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DarkBlueInk
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by DarkBlueInk »

I would say strategic bombers are way too accurate and with way too high damage output, except perhaps in a port hex. Tactical bombers should have more damage output than strategic bombers but also take higher damage since their attack is carried out at a lower altitude. Pearl Harbor, Midway, the sinking of the Bismarck - those were torpedo bombers and dive bombers, not B-17's and B-25's. That's possibly more of a change to aircraft than ships, but it's definitely not balanced (or historical).

Also, land based artillery near the coast and within range of ships should be able to do damage. The first attack on Midway was turned back by land based artillery (granted no battleships) but they weren't ineffective against smaller ships.
wecker
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by wecker »

Hi - speaking of naval battles I have to admit that I don`t like naval warfare :D

Some comments from my side:
- capital ships shoot as an entity - they have 1 strength point left but fight "full" unit - too strong in my opinion
- german Destroyers are easy killed by english PT Boats - the german S-Boats deal no damage at all. The same is true for destroyers
- destroyers giving support fire to ground units - ok. On D-Day they did that - also in Sicily where ships repelled a german tank attack - but it seems also a bit overpowered
- U Boats are too weak . they get attacked and killed too soon. Maybe realistic but it is no fun at all
- strategic bombers are shipkillers in the game - in reality they would bomb from high altitude and miss everything an the surface...
- the idea for capital ships to witch from normal "anti ship attack" to Anti Aircraft fire is very good, but...

...this is also a nightmare:

English ships blast my Luftwaffe from the sky with their ability to defend themselves wit AA fire!
They hunt my Luftwaffe really in the Crete and Sealion scenarios!

I mean I could simply cry loosing my Stukas to AA-fire from ships surrounding airfields which are near to the coastline - ridicolous!

This is in my point of view extremely overpowered.

You could invest more in lets say torpedo attacks like in OoB, so that your destroyers get a slight chance against capital ships.

Bye
R2G2
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by R2G2 »

Those are some interesting ideas :D

I suspect the Devs made Strat Bombers the ship killers to give them another role. I rarely find myself purchasing them, but that could just be my play style.

As for the Naval AA issue on Crete/Sealion scenarios :lol: I'll see what I can do to even things out. I've been thinking about reducing the Naval AA attack range to 1 hex which should improve the situation. I was surprised to see British Battleships overstrengthed to 20. I feel that's a bit excessive given the single entity trait.
Tassadar
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by Tassadar »

I agree with the points made by wecker - there are a lot of little things that make the naval combat not ideal, most of them inherited all the way from Panzer General. I played Pacific General as well and that was sometimes really painful due that naval aspect.

My main beef with the current system is that it has some issue with how much damage capital ships deal compared to how much hit points naval units have. Since they do not use entrenchment damage reduction nor similar mechanics, this is closer to air combat with the high damage output, but with more dire consequences of any damage taken.

Things that I think would make things more interesting and balance that I can think of are:

- A more flat stat increase, making difference between ship classes not so brutal
- Overall buff of naval defense of all ships, to reduce the damage taken - due to the nature of the turn based game and on player moving before the other, this gives huge advantage to the side that strikes first.
- Adjust naval attack of most planes - I actually hope that one day maybe with enough DLC more naval combat oriented bombers appear for all sides of the conflict.
- Offer wider selection of support fire types for naval unit classes (no idea how it would work exactly), but basically to make the fighting more interactive, less one sided
Jonesy1760
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Re: Destroyers should not be a "melee" unit when bombarding

Post by Jonesy1760 »

Agreed...I always wondered about that.... ships taking damage from infantry...I understand artillery shooting at them or stukas....maybe a change is due?!
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