Historical Unit Composition

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Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

So, some paratroopers for Africa anyone?

GERMANY
"Ramcke" Parachute Jaeger Brigade (1942—1943) Template


Image
Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke's Paratroopers. Egypt, Autumn 1942

This unit was really small in our terms and it's here just for some flavour for your African operations. It would be fully airmobile if you use Me 323 for its artillery. Otherwise switch the artillery unit to air-transportable 7,5 cm FK 16.

The Brigade consisted of four so-called Kampfgruppen (Combat Groups). They were merely battalion-sized (two actual Paratrooper Battalions and two Training Battalions), so I guess it would be best represented with one Regiment (made of 3 battalions) and one additional Battalion.

All the Artillery this Brigade got was one 10,5 cm Battalion. A Wagon would be a good addition to it for being used in desert terrain.

And that's pretty much it. All other assets of the brigade were of company-size. You could either try to use them (they were Sappers and Tank Hunters) with the strength of 5 if you'd like (though that would make them practically useless gameplay-wise) or go some alt-history and increase their size to a full-strength battalion.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
1 x Fallschirmjäger; 1 x Fallschirmjäger (strength 10) + Ju 52, DFS 230 or Me 323 Gigant;
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 (strength 7) + Wagon + Me 323 Gigant.

Ramcke Parachute Brigade would cost your African Corps 9 core slots without planes and somewhat 560 prestige. Just some neat and historically-accurate addition for your desert campaigns, nothing too fancy. You wouldn't expect Fallschirmjäger armadas in Africa anyway, right? :)
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Dear fellow strategists, please note that all unit template miniatures have been updated and their overall quality was seriously improved. You can always watch these images in full size by opening them in a separate tab of your browser. More to come! :) Hope to make the infamous Brandenburger guys quite soon!
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Okay. I was in serious doubts whether to make them or not, but these guys are such a meme that I've decided finally to do them. Maybe, the devs will add the Brandenburgers as a separate unit one day, but if you want to have them in your game today, let's take a look.

First and foremost — the Brandenburgers weren't a solid front-combat unit until 1944 when they practically lost all their special purpose tasks and status, becoming a usual mechanised infantry division. However, during its most notorious times, when the Brandenburg commandos performed their best-known operations, they were a tactical unit, which companies and even smaller task forces were deployed all over the world separately, from France to Russia and from Norway to North Africa. So both our templates (Special Purpose Traning Regiment Brandenburg '40—41 and Special Formation / Division Brandenburg '42—43) would be more hypothetical — you know, for a scenario where all the Brandenburgers fight together. For the '44 Panzergrenadier Brandenburg Division the template isn't really problematic, but we won't describe it here since that was no commando/airbourne formation — Tank Grenadiers would be covered later.

GERMANY
Early Commando Template. "Brandenburg 800" Special Purpose Training Regiment — as of 1941


Image
Brandenburger Commandos. Ukraine, Autumn 1941

As I've said before, it's really difficult to represent commandos, especially the German ones, in Panzer Corps. However, I have some methodic thoughts in that regard.

By the beginning of the Operation Barbarossa the Brandenburg special unit was of regimental strength and consisted of three battalions. I guess, we have the right, taking in account the diversity, flexibility and highest professionalism of these soldiers to take each battalion as a separate 10-strength infantry unit. The only problem would be their designation.

In my opinion, the best way to show all the spectre of Brandenburgers' operations would be to make three different battalions — motorised Grenadier (to show their assault and takeover operations and taking in account that they would later become a Tank Grenadier entity) and Gebirgsjäger (to show their light infantry task forces trained to fight in all kinds of terrain) and Fallschirmjäger (historically the Brandenburg 800 unit had only one parachute company, but I guess it would be okay on the game scale. It's up to you whether to give these guys transport planes or not, right?).

And what, that should be all? Three battalions only? Well, I guess, not just.

This regiment also had a whole bunch of foreign national sub-units trained specially by the German intelligence service (Abwehr) in order to cooperate with the German special forces and provide all the necessary assistance to them. And if we're describing the Brandenburger organization by the beginning of Barbarossa, then it should also have two Ukrainian national battalions — Battalion Group "Roland" and Battalion Group "Nachtigall" (Nightingale) attached. Historically they were composed of mostly Polish nationals of Ukrainian ethnic descent and they took part in quite a few Brandenburg 800 operations. I guess, they would be nicely represent by the usual Wehr Infanterie, since they were auxiliaries.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
1 x Grenadier + Opel Blitz (strength 10);
1 x Gebirgäger + Opel Blitz (strength 10);
1 x Fallschirmäger (strength 10) + DFS 230 or Ju 52 (optional);
2 x Wehr Infanterie (strength 10).

It would 15 core slots without planes and circa 980 prestige. Not so much for such a flavourous unit. However, its actual combat abilities in the game would be very limited unless these guys have a ton of experience :)

GERMANY
Mid-War Commando Template. Special Formation / Division "Brandenburg" — as of 1943


Image
Brandenburger Commandos. Serbia, Summer 1943

In November 1942 the Brandenburg 800 Regiment grew into a division-strong unit named "Special Formation Brandenburg" (Sonderverband Brandenburg) and in April 1943 it was officially designated "Brandenburg Division". We would combine these both formations into one template to show Brandenburger Commandos at their peak strength.

Sonderverband Brandenburg consisted of 5 battalions, all of them turned regiments in 1943. I guess it would be a right thing to consider them regimental-strong for this template, especially if we take into account that 5th regiment was an Abwehr special training school and took no part in any combat missions. So, the backbone of the division are these four Regiments.

By 1943 their main task was counter-sabotage and anti-partisan operations, so I guess it would be best to make at least two regiments '43 Gebirgsjäger — in my opinion, they portray best possible units for counter-insurgency operations in Yugoslavian mountains and forests. I guess, these should be the 1st and the 4th Brandenburger Regiments, since they take the most part in this mountainous anti-partisan warfare. And of course one of them should be fast enougth and use Opel Blitz for more operative mobility.

Other two regiments, 2. Brandenburg and 3. Brandenburg, could be '43 Fallschirmjäger and mechanised '43 Grenadier respectively as we did before. For the last ones I suggest using SdKfz 250/1. This choice is, as earlier, to show the wide variety of special-purpose tasks of the Brandenburg Division.

There was also a definitely unique unit named "Küstenjäger-Abteilung" (Coastal Jaeger Battalion). These were the naval arm of the Brandenburger, some kind of naval commando in cooperation with Kriegsmarine. However, I think it would be best to represent them as a well-experienced mobile '43 Pioniere, because this unit initially was an engineer part of the Brandenburg 800, and this unit definitely needs some good sappers for overall game performance. We should give them a nice blue Marine uniform, nonetheless! :)

And, I guess, we could use another foreign volunteer unit. In this case that's Sonderverband 'Bergmann' (Special Formation 'Mountaineer'). This unit was drafted from Caucasian ethnicities — both Soviet PoWs and volunteer collaborationists. These peoples were of great importance since they knew all the details of the landscape and were skilled in mountainous warfare. I guess, this national unit could be represented by a battalion (strength 10) of usual, not M43 Gebirgsjäger without any motorisation. You should also remember that this Bergmann battalion eventually became a regiment, so it could be strengthened up to 15 by mid-1943 or so. The flag I've decided to use for them is the 'Bergkaukasien' (Caucasus Mountains) armpatch insignia of the Wehrmacht volunteers, since there were plenty of nations in 'Bergmann' — Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijani etc. — and taking one of these nations' flag could be problematic.

And that should be finally it! :)

TEMPLATE TOTALS
1 x Gebirgsjäger '43, 1 x Gebirgsjäger '43 + Opel Blitz;
1 x Gebirgsjäger (strength 10);
1 x Fallschirmjäger '43 + DFS 230 or Ju 52 (optional);
1 x Grenadier '43 + SdKfz 250/1
1 x Pioniere '43 + Opel Blitz (strength 10).

Brandenburg Division at full strength would cost you 25 core slots if we don't count air transports and about 1735 prestige. Definitely costly, but elite is elite after all, right?
Last edited by Khancotlette on Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:49 am, edited 6 times in total.
Panzer73
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Panzer73 »

Nice work with the templates. Based on the scales of the maps and the operations we are supposed to replicate (both in the standard campaign and the AO campaigns), it is hard to tell if our standard units represent a battalion, regiment - or even a brigade at times.

The late-ware FJ divisions don't need to air-portable - they weren't real paratroops. Many "paratroopers" in that period never had parachute training. Other than the small operation as part of the Ardennes offensive, I can't remember any German paratroop operations in '44-'45.
Waffenamt
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Waffenamt »

That's correct, but at least we can hopefully look forward to this seemingly little-known campaign in 1943, quoting from Stackpole's War in the Aegean: the campaign for the Eastern Mediterranean in World War II:

"One of the most pernicious and most enduring, despite the true facts having long been known, is the persistent one that, after Crete in 1941, German paratroops never jumped from aircraft into battle again. At Leros in 1943, they did just that and again took the island."

Regards
mdh_slith
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by mdh_slith »

Didn't the Fallschirmjager drop in Sicily as well to (try to) recapture a bridge from the Red Devils?
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Okay, so, I've finally decided to make another paratrooper template, but I guess, it'll be the last (at least for now) :)

And another paratrooper division comes!

GERMANY
Late-War Air Landing Division (1944—1945) Template


Image
91st Air Landing Division. Normandy, Summer 1944

In general, there were two Air Landing Divisions (Luflande-Division) in Wehrmacht's history. Basically, they were just regular Wehrmacht infantry, but air-transported, some kind of Heer (Army) airmobile units. That, for my opinion, shouldn't require a separate template — you could just compose a standard Infantry Division and move them by planes, that should be pretty much it. However, by the late period of the war, one of these two divisions, 91st Air Landing one, got some kind of unique structure, which I guess, would be interesting for you and could become another flavour addition to your core troops in PzC 2. So, speaking of Air Landing Divisions, we would mention only its late setup.

The core of the unit are two Grenadier Regiments. Since that's late-war German infantry, these Grenadier should be of strength 12 and model 43.

Then — some standard divisional assets. Sapper Battalion, composed of 10 '43 Pioniere and Artillery Regiment with 10,5 cm light howitzers transported by Opels. Like almost every late-war German division, the Air Landing Division also had the so-called Fusiliers for reconnaissance purposes. We've decided to portray them with a 10-strong unit of Kradschützen.

The rest of the division, however, is very unusual. Let's begin with one Parachute Jaeger Regiment, which was attached to the division. Of course in the terms of the game it's a full-strength unit of '43 Fallschirmjäger.

The next bizarre addition is the so-called "Special Purpose Artillery Regiment". Basically it was another howitzer unit armed with trophy Soviet 122mm M1938 cannons. These should be carried by SdKfz 11.

And, to conclude it all, probably, the most unexpected guest. The division also had a Tank Replacement & Training Battalion (Panzer-Ersatz-Ausbildungsabteilung) attached to it. This unit, being only training station by its name, took part in some real combat in France in 1944 due to lack of actual tanks and the need of them in the Eastern front. I think we should represent it in the game, definitely, to make this division template truly unique. Historically, the battalion was equipped with trophy French Renault R35, Hotchkiss H35/39 and Somua tanks. R35, however, dominated in its ranks, so we would choose them. Important Disclaimer: I'm still thinking of tank strength for the upcoming Motorised, Mechanised and Tank divisions in order to make the templates both historically accurate, systematic and fun to play (since, as some guys here reasonably stated, the game is called Panzer Corps), so maybe the representation of Tank battalions and regiments could be different to infantry ones. However, in this case everything is pretty much obvious — this was an auxiliary rear tank training facility, so no need to make it really powerful and combat-capable, especially with its obsolete armament. So, strength 7.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
1 x Fallschirmjäger '43 + Ju 52, DFS 230 or Me 323 Gigant;
1 x Pioniere '43 + Ju 52, DFS 230 or Me 323 Gigant (strength 10);
2 x Grenadier '43 + Ju 52, DFS 230 or Me 323 Gigant (strength 12);
1 x Soviet 122mm M1938 + SdKfz 11 + Me 323 Gigant;
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz + Me 323 Gigant;
1 x Kradschützen;
1 x French Renault R35 (strength 7).

The cost of this template: 27 core slots (planes not included) and circa 1665 prestige. Basically it makes the Luftlande-Division a (much) cheaper alternative of an original '44 Fallschirmjäger-Division.

And in the next update we'll talk about Motorised Infantry! Stay tuned and many thanks for your attention! :)
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Let's move on. Of course I'm going to return to some more Infantry templates later (as you may notice in the INDEX, there are still plenty of infantry divisions and other units to be covered), but that'll wait, I guess. We're now beginning with the Fast Troops (Schnelle Truppen) — the flesh and blood of Blitzkrieg and probably the most important branch in the game, since that's a tank-centered strategy after all. So, let's start.

GERMANY
Early War (1939) Infantry Division (Motorised) Template


Image
German Motorised Infantry. Poland, Autumn 1939

First German motorised infantry divisions were just infantry and guns transported by trucks. They were even named Infanterie-Division (mot.), just like some kind of modified Infantry, not a separate branch. So a typical division would be very similar to its original Infantry counterpart. And it was true — to some extent.

In this template we would take a look at the earliest Motorised Infantry template, used only in Polish campaign. More to come soon!

Motorised Infantry Division consisted of three Regiments, which I suppose to make all Wehr Infanterie (so no Grenadier this time) to show their lighter firepower in comparison to a usual Infantry Division. Of course these guys should have their Opels.

Sapper Battalion was completely the same, except being motorised, too. So, Pioniere, strength 10 and Opel Blitz.

Artillery Regiment was completely the same with regular infantry — 10,5 cm leFH 18 howitzers were its main armament. However, motorised infantry divisions also had a separate Heavy Artillery Battalion of 15 cm howitzers, which should be represented as well. They were needed to give the division more firepower since its infantry units were generally 'lighter'. Also be aware that these 15 cm sFH 18 may be carried only by SdKfz 7 half-trucks.

Anti-Tank Battalion stays the same — 3,7 cm PaK 36 and Opel Blitz to carry it. Strength 7.

And, to finish it, the Recon Battalion. I guess, for the earliest Motorised Division we should choose a Kradschützen unit with the strength of 7. It would be a nice analogue of the '39 Infantry Division cavalry reconnaissance. Armored cars would appear a bit later.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
3 x Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz;
1 x Pioniere + Opel Blitz (strength 10);
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz;
1 x 15 cm sFH 18 + SdKfz 7 (strength 7);
1 x 3,7 cm PaK 36 + Opel Blitz (strength 7);
1 x Kradschützen (strength 7);

And that should be it! So, an early type of Motorised Infantry would cost you 23 slots and 2010 prestige. Yes, you're right, it's more expensive than a regular Infantry in terms of prestige, but almost similar when we speak of slots. Then we would speak about a two-regimental re-organised Motorised Infantry. To be continued! :)
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Let's go on.

GERMANY
Early War (1940) Infantry Division (Motorised) Template


Image
German Motorised Infantry. Netherlands, Spring 1940

After the Polish Campaign all German motorised infantry divisions were significantly weakend — each of it detached one of its regiments to form new divisions (mostly Panzer ones). All other formations and assets were weaker than in 1939, too, but we won't show it in order to keep the division in adequate combat form.

So, now we have only two Motorised Infantry Regiments (still Wehr Infanterie and Opel Blitz for each of them).

Almost everything else should stay the same with 1939 template, like the Sapper Battalion (Pioniere, strength 10 and Opel Blitz), Artillery Regiment(10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz) and Heavy Artillery Battalion (15 cm sFH 18 + SdKfz 7). Historically both artillery and heavy artillery were also weaker in comparison to 1939 version, but we'll keep it as is for gameplay reasons.

Anti-Tank Battalion is also unchanged — 3,7 cm PaK 36 and Opel Blitz. Strength 7. PaK 38 could be an optional purchase by that time.

Speaking of Recon Battalion I should say that most of these divisions' reconnaissance were still motorcyclists after the reorganization, but since your core units are something elite and top brass, I guess, we could be brave enough to switch to SdKfz 222 armoured cars by 1940, like being supplied with the best vehicles and armaments available.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
2 x Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz;
1 x Pioniere + Opel Blitz (strength 10);
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz;
1 x 15 cm sFH 18 + SdKfz 7 (strength 7);
1 x 3,7 cm PaK 36 + Opel Blitz (strength 7);
1 x SdKfz 222 (strength 7);

And the cost data to sum it all up. You'll have to pay 20 core slots and 1755 prestige. So, for obvious reasons, this later division is cheaper than the previous one. You'll be able to use it more widely in Low Countries, Norway and France, then! :)
Last edited by Khancotlette on Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

And now to more 'generic' template. After Battle of France each Infanterie-Division (motorisierte) got somewhat unique personal organisation without any particular system — some divisions were stronger and some are weaker, so this template is some way to show the most general pattern, which could be named the most common for such divisions by the beginning of the Barbarossa.

GERMANY
Mid-War (1941/42) Infantry Division (Motorised) Template


Image
German Motorised Infantry. Russia, Summer 1942

Okay. Basically, in its core Motorised Infantry Divisions stayed more or less the same with their '40 patterns. However, the "weakening" of them continued, since their resources were more and more needed for Panzer troops. Also, the new mechanised Panzer-Grenadier Divisions started to steal the show, which made Infantry Divisions (Motorised) to become something second-sort and auxiliary in many cases. However, there still were quite a few of decent units. Some of them even included tank battalions, so there was no such thing as common Motorised Divison organization. That's my general vision, as I've mentioned before, of a typical (as much as we can imagine) Motorised Infantry Division composition by 1941/42.

Still two Motorised Infantry Regiments. I stay with Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz, but I guess by 1942 an optional purchase of one Grenadier regiment would make sense, too.

Sapper Battalion (10 Pioniere + Opel Blitz) stays the same, it wouldn't change much.

Artillery Regiment with the 10,5 cm howitzers kept its place. However, most (if not all) Motorised Infantry Divisions had lost their Heavy Artillery Battalions by 1941. They were needed for different purposes. So, only one artillery regiment here. And an Opel to carry it.

Anti-Tank Battalion is here just as before. We would only upgrade it to 5 cm PaK 38. SdKfz 11 could be optionally bought instead of an Opel, but I'd suggest that for a later template.

And the most interesting part here is Recon. Motorised Infantry Divisions (at least, majority of them) had both a Motorised Reconnaissance Detachment — Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot.) — and a Motorcycle Battalion (Kradschützen-Bataillon) by that time. Some of the divisions had such an interesting setup even before (like 2. Infanterie-Division (mot.) by the Battle of France), but it became a rule only by 1941/42. So, I guess, we would represent these guys with 7-strength units of SdKfz 222 and Kradschützen respectively. As I've said before, it's not fully correct to give armoured cars to a generic Motorised Infantry template since they were quite rare there, but for the purpose of gameplay fun and diversity we could do it without seriously breaking any historical accuracy, taking in account that the player's core units are somewhat elite and well-supplied.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
2 x Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz;
1 x Pioniere + Opel Blitz (strength 10);
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz;
1 x 5 cm PaK 38 + Opel Blitz (strength 7);
1 x SdKfz 222 (strength 7);
1 x Kradschützen (strength 7).

In total that would be 19 core slots and 1605 prestige. Quite cheap for the mid-game, huh? And let's draw some conclusions. What do we have here? A fast division with really good reconnaissance abilities, but definitely lacking firepower and support. Make sure that these guys stay behind your tanks! ;)
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

And the last template for the Motorised Infantry. As before (and even more) it's some kind of hypothetical and generic template, since almost all such divisions were either converted to the Panzergrenadier or ceased to exist by 1943/44. However, some of them (14th Motorised Infantry Division would be the best-known example) kept their status until the very end of the war, so that's what we would make a base for our template.

GERMANY
Late War (1943/44—45) Infantry Division (Motorised) Template


Image
German Motorised Infantry. Poland, Winter 1944/45

Just the same with the rest of the German Army, late-war Motorised Infantry was much lesser in numbers than in previous campaigns. However, in terms of organisation it nominally became a bit stronger than before. Let's take a look.

We've got one more Motorised Regiment back, returning to the total number of three. However, all of them became 2-battalions strong, and we've decided to represent this with a reduced number of 12. One of this regiments should be '43 Grenadier, and the other two — '43 Wehr Infanterie. All still driven by Opel Blitz.

The division lost its Sappers. Sad, but what could be done. However, both the Artillery Regiment and Anti-Tank Battalion are still here. The gunners still have their 10,5 cm's and Opels, and the tank hunters would switch to 7,5 cm PaK 40 or 41. And they would also have SdKfz 11 half-trucks.

And, as before, the Motorised Infantry Division is still surprisingly good at reconnaissance. It had both a Fusilier Battalion (well-known to us from other late-war division, where we've designed them as 10-strength Kradschützen) and Armoured Reconnaissance Detachment (Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung), which, I guess, would be best portrayed by a 7-strong unit of SdKfz 234/1.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
2 x '43 Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz (strength 12);
1 x '43 Grenadier + Opel Blitz (strength 12);
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz;
1 x 7,5 cm PaK 40/41 + SdKfz 11 (strength 7);
1 x SdKfz 234/1 8Rad (strength 7);
1 x Kradschützen (strength 7).

All of that would cost us 22 core slots and 1965 prestige. Is it really worth in comparison to a Panzer-Grenadier-Division? I would rather say no, but for historical purpose and more flavour you could use it, of course! :)
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Khancotlette wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:45 pm And the last template for the Motorised Infantry. As before (and even more) it's some kind of hypothetical and generic template, since almost all such divisions were either converted to the Panzergrenadier or ceased to exist by 1943/44. However, some of them (14th Motorised Infantry Division would be the best-known example) kept their status until the very end of the war, so that's what we would make a base for our template.

GERMANY
Late War (1943/44—45) Infantry Division (Motorised) Template


Image
German Motorised Infantry. Poland, Winter 1944/45

Just the same with the rest of the German Army, late-war Motorised Infantry was much lesser in numbers than in previous campaigns. However, in terms of organisation it nominally became a bit stronger than before. Let's take a look.

We've got one more Motorised Regiment back, returning to the total number of three. However, all of them became 2-battalions strong, and we've decided to represent this with a reduced number of 12. One of this regiments should be '43 Grenadier, and the other two — '43 Wehr Infanterie. All still driven by Opel Blitz.

The division lost its Sappers. Sad, but what could be done. However, both the Artillery Regiment and Anti-Tank Battalion are still here. The gunners still have their 10,5 cm's and Opels, and the tank hunters would switch to 7,5 cm PaK 40 or 41. And they would also have SdKfz 11 half-trucks.

And, as before, the Motorised Infantry Division is still surprisingly good at reconnaissance. It had both a Fusilier Battalion (well-known to us from other late-war division, where we've designed them as 10-strength Kradschützen) and Armoured Reconnaissance Detachment (Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung), which, I guess, would be best portrayed by a 7-strong unit of SdKfz 234/1.

TEMPLATE TOTALS
2 x '43 Wehr Infanterie + Opel Blitz (strength 12);
1 x '43 Grenadier + Opel Blitz (strength 12);
1 x 10,5 cm leFH 18 + Opel Blitz;
1 x 7,5 cm PaK 40/41 + SdKfz 11 (strength 7);
1 x SdKfz 234/1 8Rad (strength 7);
1 x Kradschützen (strength 7).

All of that would cost us 22 core slots and 1965 prestige. Is it really worth in comparison to a Panzer-Grenadier-Division? I would rather say no, but for historical purpose and more flavour you could use it, of course! :)
KHancotlette, I wanted to let you know that by 1943 Kradschützen units were disbanded because they became obsolete. They were either converted/merged into regular infantry units or Aufklärungs abteilungen. Therefore, none of your divisions should include one from '43 onwards. In the campaigns I plan to convert mine to either tanks or AT in DLC AO1943
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Do you plan to make any templates for elite divisions, particularly Panzer Lehr or Großdeutschland?
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

adiekmann wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:32 pm Do you plan to make any templates for elite divisions, particularly Panzer Lehr or Großdeutschland?
Sure! :)
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

adiekmann wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:29 pm KHancotlette, I wanted to let you know that by 1943 Kradschützen units were disbanded because they became obsolete. They were either converted/merged into regular infantry units or Aufklärungs abteilungen. Therefore, none of your divisions should include one from '43 onwards. In the campaigns I plan to convert mine to either tanks or AT in DLC AO1943
Yeah, I know that, thanks. I just think they should be the best way to represent the Fusilier battalions, which were mostly equipped with bicycles and other light recon vehicles. That's some kind of compromise to me.
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Methodological Commentary (preface to the Mechanised and Armoured units section)

Okay, hello there. We're about to begin the most important part of this thread — the German armoured units. A few guys here reasonably said that the game is Panzer-focused and that it would be quite problematic to field many armoured units, using only the regimental/battalional structure as we did before. I've spent a few days planning and reconsidering the methodology and came to — I guess — the most compromising variant.

There are two key principles here which I'd like to follow:
1. Treating infantry (including Motorised) and armoured (including Mechanised Infantry) units in a separate way. The game is about tanks, you're primarily a tank commander. Most of the scenarios would require at least 2/3 of your army corps (so up to 4 divisions under your command) to be composed of armoured units. So, there is nothing strange in using slightly different methods for representing infantry (and any other units), which should be considered auxiliary, and the tank units, which are the core of the game.
2. The idea of following the historical divisional structure, however, should stay, because that's the whole point. Only the principle of unit representation should be a bit adjusted, but the whole system should be the same, the corps under your command should look homogenous and as historically accurate as possible (that's the task of this thread).

So, what's the idea?

All non-armoured parts of the tank and mechanised units should still follow our previous pattern: regiments and battalions. 15/10 for infantry, 10/7 for everyone else. And that also would be reasonable for the armoured component (StuGs, Panzerwerfer, auxiliary tanks, etc.) of infantry and other non-armoured divisions that we've mentioned before and would mention in future. Tanks and assault guns from infantry divisions should not be treated the same as their counterparts from the armoured units. They are different in the means of tactics and strategy, and it should be so in the game, as well.

I guess here we should follow not only the organisational structure, but also the numbers when we speak of tanks, self-propelled artillery and the rest. And how to be in consistence with the infantry? Well, I guess, that's achievable. We took a number of 10 for an infantry battalion, right? Infantry battalion is roughly 1000 men strong. If that's 10 strength for infantry, then we should just convert it into tanks. What's the typical tank crew size? 3—4 men. Then, it makes a 10-strong tank unit, I guess, about 30 tanks. So, the coefficient here is 1:3.

10-strength tank units = 30 tanks. As simple as that. A typical Panzer division had roughly 210 tanks in 1939 and about 195 tanks by the beginning of Barbarossa. So, not less than 6 tank units per division! That would provide both immersion, tank types diversity, gameplay fun and operational strength, and we would also keep the historically accurate structure.

So, rule of thumb:

All units of the non-armoured divisions are organized this way: regiments are full-strength (15 for infantry and 10 for the rest), battalions are partial-strength (10 for infantry and 7 for the rest).

In the armoured divisions, all auxiliary units are organized the same way as above, tanks and other armoured machines are represented with a 1:3 coefficient — 1 units means 30 machines. These 30 tanks or assault guns, by the way, are about a half of a typical battalion, so we would, generally speaking, just 'duplicate' the battalional structure for better gameplay and authenticity.


So, what do you think? Do you find this method reasonable? :) If so, I would continue with my templates.
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Khancotlette wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:24 pm Methodological Commentary (preface to the Mechanised and Armoured units section)

I guess here we should follow not only the organisational structure, but also the numbers when we speak of tanks, self-propelled artillery and the rest. And how to be in consistence with the infantry? Well, I guess, that's achievable. We took a number of 10 for an infantry battalion, right? Infantry battalion is roughly 1000 men strong. If that's 10 strength for infantry, then we should just convert it into tanks. What's the typical tank crew size? 3—4 men. Then, it makes a 10-strong tank unit, I guess, about 30 tanks. So, the coefficient here is 1:3.

So, what do you think? Do you find this method reasonable? :) If so, I would continue with my templates.
A couple of issues I have with your baselines. 1000 men per infantry battalion is a modern standard in the Bundesheer because they largely replaced the regiment system, with "brigades" substituting for what you'd previously called a regiment. During WW2 German infantry battalions were normally around 400-800. A regiment was around 1100-2000, depending on how many battalions were in the regiment. Standard German infantry regiments usually had 3 battalions per regiment, and three regiments, whereas in armored divisions their infantry regiments usually only had two battalions per regiment.

German tanks, talking Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs (ignoring Panzer I's and Panzer II's), had 5-man crews. Some of the other nations' early tanks only had 4 (including T-34s) and most modern tanks have 3-4 because they don't need a loader (auto-loading). After the early war period, most common Allied tanks had 5 too (e.g. Sherman and Churchhill tanks). So some adjustment I think is in order.

"The German armored divisions in 1939 had about 11,790 men and 328 tanks. The division was organized into 2 brigades. The tank brigade had two regiments, each with 4 battalions, and the infantry brigade had one regiment of motorized infantry and a number of supporting units (e.g., reconnaissance, engineer, signal, artillery). In addition to its tanks, the division had 36 guns (ranging from 75mm to 170mm); 48 mortars; 48 anti-tanks guns; 46 heavy and 180 light machine guns; and 12 anti-aircraft guns."

By 1944, German infantry and armored divisions had changed significantly.

"The armored (Panzer) division now numbered 14,750 men and had about 160 tanks. The division was organized into an armored regiment with two tank battalions and 2 regiments of infantry, each with 2 battalions, along with various supporting units (reconnaissance, engineer, signal, etc.). In addition to its tanks, the division was armed with 77 guns (ranging from 75mm to 150mm); 70 mortars; 33 anti-tank guns; and 700 machine guns; and some 100 anti-aircraft guns."


source: https://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/services/dr ... an_99.html (Scroll down for WW2 info because it beings with WW1)

I remember the battalion size from the index of a book I read 20 years ago, but it is difficult to find a quote for battalion size that isn't modern. If you look regiment size, it only tells you how may battalions and not how many men in each battalion. You need to be careful when you look at "division size" in manpower because that's including all of the supporting arms too: engineers, AT, AA, Signals, Artillery, etc.

Of course, all of this stuff varied considerably during the war but we're talking average full strength. Hope this helps.
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Thank you, that's really helpful! :)

The battalion size and tank crew numbers are of course somewhat relativistic, I never mentioned them in historical sense, that's just the example for strength coefficient I've used for my calculations. These rough numbers were used to explain the method of unit representation. What do you think of it? Should it be changed, or 1:3 is fine?

Regarding the 328 tanks per division thing — yes, you're right, but that was the desired number, which was never really achieved by most divisions. If we take in account actual tanks that were in the ranks, the median numbers are what I've posted before — about more than 200 by 1939 and less than 200 by 1941. For example, before the invasion of Poland some Panzer divisions had even more tanks than these 328 (the 4th had 341, the 5th had 335, and the 3rd had even 391!), but the 1st had 309, the 10th had 150, Kempf Division had 164, 1st Light/6th Panzer had 226, and the rest of the light division even less — 85, 80, 62... We could always, of course, make two templates: "how it was designed" and "how it was in reality" :D However, if we consider this circa-320-full strength, then, of course, 1:3 scale would be problematic, because 10 tank units are surely a lot for the game, it's going to be some kind of overkill... That's really a matter to consider. By the moment of Barbarossa the numbers were considerably less — 145 in the 1st, 215 in the 3rd, 166 in the 4th, 182 in the 10th, 143 in the 11th, 293 in the 12th and so on.

For the late phase of the war, however, everything is quite better — 160 tanks per division by design, which means 5 tank units for one division, which is perfectly fine for this system.

I'm open to all suggestions and ideas, because I really want to make these templates both plausible and playable! :)
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Khancotlette wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:32 pm Thank you, that's really helpful! :)

The battalion size and tank crew numbers are of course somewhat relativistic, I never mentioned them in historical sense, that's just the example for strength coefficient I've used for my calculations. These rough numbers were used to explain the method of unit representation. What do you think of it? Should it be changed, or 1:3 is fine?

Regarding the 328 tanks per division thing — yes, you're right, but that was the desired number, which was never really achieved by most divisions. If we take in account actual tanks that were in the ranks, the median numbers are what I've posted before — about more than 200 by 1939 and less than 200 by 1941. For example, before the invasion of Poland some Panzer divisions had even more tanks than these 328 (the 4th had 341, the 5th had 335, and the 3rd had even 391!), but the 1st had 309, the 10th had 150, Kempf Division had 164, 1st Light/6th Panzer had 226, and the rest of the light division even less — 85, 80, 62... We could always, of course, make two templates: "how it was designed" and "how it was in reality" :D However, if we consider this circa-320-full strength, then, of course, 1:3 scale would be problematic, because 10 tank units are surely a lot for the game, it's going to be some kind of overkill... That's really a matter to consider. By the moment of Barbarossa the numbers were considerably less — 145 in the 1st, 215 in the 3rd, 166 in the 4th, 182 in the 10th, 143 in the 11th, 293 in the 12th and so on.

For the late phase of the war, however, everything is quite better — 160 tanks per division by design, which means 5 tank units for one division, which is perfectly fine for this system.

I'm open to all suggestions and ideas, because I really want to make these templates both plausible and playable! :)
From what I remember reading, those 1939-40 numbers are indeed real-life numbers for tanks in those divisions. But I don't have time to look it up now to check. Remember, there only were 5 panzer divisions at the time of Poland, and only 10 for the Battle of France. Starting in Fall of 1940, that's when the Germans weakened their Panzer divisions in order to make more of them, but diluted the number of tanks in each division as a result. Later war units were rarely at "on paper" strength. Each Panzer battalion was usually about 80-90 tanks. That's why I use the 1-unit = 1 battalion rule, except for Wehr infantry and Grenadier units. But I applaud your ideas as interesting, as there is no for certain "correct" way as we both have mentioned before. You can poke holes in one's system matter which way you decide.
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Early war ('39-40) Panzer divisions would therefore have 4 tanks (in game), 2 abteilungen per panzer regiment, and 2 regiments per division. Then, starting in '41, reduce them to 2 tank units per division to reflect the single panzer regiment. That's what I did when playing AO 39 to present.
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