Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

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Magni
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by Magni »

I cna agree that No Surrender is actually kinda useful for when you want to use your Recons to do trollish and slightly suicidal things.
P5138 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:44 am - "Lightweight": Can be transported on aircraft.
- "Paratrooper": Can be dropped from a transport plane. (does not make unit air-transportable.)
- "Marine": Disembarking from transport vehicles doesn't spend an attack action.
- "Air Defense": Will defend against incoming air attacks, suppressing with the soft attack stat.
Soo.. airdropping Jagdtigers that hit aircraft harder than a Flak 40. That sounds kinda ridiculous even with the kind of shenanigans current heroes can get up to.
BaronVonKrieg
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by BaronVonKrieg »

Magni wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:30 pm I cna agree that No Surrender is actually kinda useful for when you want to use your Recons to do trollish and slightly suicidal things.
P5138 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:44 am - "Lightweight": Can be transported on aircraft.
- "Paratrooper": Can be dropped from a transport plane. (does not make unit air-transportable.)
- "Marine": Disembarking from transport vehicles doesn't spend an attack action.
- "Air Defense": Will defend against incoming air attacks, suppressing with the soft attack stat.
Soo.. airdropping Jagdtigers that hit aircraft harder than a Flak 40. That sounds kinda ridiculous even with the kind of shenanigans current heroes can get up to.
so they just add class hero limitation for those, like some historical heroes
scorehouse
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by scorehouse »

a Hero I'd like to see for bombers, all types, is a Plus 1 movement after bombing a target. its unrealistic to have 2 or more air units not able to attack the same ground target? the plus 1 would allow a bomber to attack a target, move one hex, then the next bomber group attack. during the war, the heavy bombers would be immediately followed by Stukas attacking flushed out and now exposed targets.
nexusno2000
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by nexusno2000 »

scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 am a Hero I'd like to see for bombers, all types, is a Plus 1 movement after bombing a target. its unrealistic to have 2 or more air units not able to attack the same ground target? the plus 1 would allow a bomber to attack a target, move one hex, then the next bomber group attack. during the war, the heavy bombers would be immediately followed by Stukas attacking flushed out and now exposed targets.
Double Move. Already in the game.
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adiekmann
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by adiekmann »

scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 am a Hero I'd like to see for bombers, all types, is a Plus 1 movement after bombing a target. its unrealistic to have 2 or more air units not able to attack the same ground target? the plus 1 would allow a bomber to attack a target, move one hex, then the next bomber group attack. during the war, the heavy bombers would be immediately followed by Stukas attacking flushed out and now exposed targets.
There's kind of a hero for that purpose already, called Double Move. While you can use it only on any kind of unit, it is clearly best used on a bomber.
jeannot le lapin
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by jeannot le lapin »

adiekmann wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:27 am
scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 am a Hero I'd like to see for bombers, all types, is a Plus 1 movement after bombing a target. its unrealistic to have 2 or more air units not able to attack the same ground target? the plus 1 would allow a bomber to attack a target, move one hex, then the next bomber group attack. during the war, the heavy bombers would be immediately followed by Stukas attacking flushed out and now exposed targets.
There's kind of a hero for that purpose already, called Double Move. While you can use it only on any kind of unit, it is clearly best used on a bomber.
Double Move.jpg
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scorehouse
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by scorehouse »

forget the Hero part then I rarely get Double Move and very bomber should be able to attack target then move off target so another bomber can attack. due to range issues and the number of attacks it takes to sink Jap naval targets, curious how this issue will be addressed. in the original it would take 4 attacks, without any ship repair, to sink a capital ship. usually a Torpedo and overhead bomber combo. also the fly out attack immediately return to base won't work. in fact, pilots knew when they embarked they might run out of fuel before being able to return to their carrier or Island Bases,
nexusno2000
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by nexusno2000 »

scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:29 pm forget the Hero part then I rarely get Double Move and very bomber should be able to attack target then move off target so another bomber can attack. due to range issues and the number of attacks it takes to sink Jap naval targets, curious how this issue will be addressed. in the original it would take 4 attacks, without any ship repair, to sink a capital ship. usually a Torpedo and overhead bomber combo. also the fly out attack immediately return to base won't work. in fact, pilots knew when they embarked they might run out of fuel before being able to return to their carrier or Island Bases,
Absolutely not.

Planes do a lot of damage and are balanced with a single attack per turn in mind.

Two attacks as a rule is utterly broken.
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scorehouse
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by scorehouse »

not the same plane unless you use double attack. its unrealistic, which may be your preference, but no other targets r immune from multiple attacks by either the same unit or multiple units, other than a bomber target?
Magni
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by Magni »

scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:29 pm forget the Hero part then I rarely get Double Move and very bomber should be able to attack target then move off target so another bomber can attack. due to range issues and the number of attacks it takes to sink Jap naval targets, curious how this issue will be addressed. in the original it would take 4 attacks, without any ship repair, to sink a capital ship. usually a Torpedo and overhead bomber combo. also the fly out attack immediately return to base won't work. in fact, pilots knew when they embarked they might run out of fuel before being able to return to their carrier or Island Bases,
Yeah sure. That makes sense. If you in return reduce the effect of both strats and tacs to something like 20% of what they can do now. Because otherwise you've just made them utterly OP.
scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:21 pm not the same plane unless you use double attack. its unrealistic, which may be your preference, but no other targets r immune from multiple attacks by either the same unit or multiple units, other than a bomber target?
Units other than Strats and Tacs also aren't balanced with only one being able to hit any given target each turn in mind. Bombers ARE.
P5138
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by P5138 »

Magni wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:30 pm I cna agree that No Surrender is actually kinda useful for when you want to use your Recons to do trollish and slightly suicidal things.
P5138 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:44 am - "Lightweight": Can be transported on aircraft.
- "Paratrooper": Can be dropped from a transport plane. (does not make unit air-transportable.)
- "Marine": Disembarking from transport vehicles doesn't spend an attack action.
- "Air Defense": Will defend against incoming air attacks, suppressing with the soft attack stat.
Soo.. airdropping Jagdtigers that hit aircraft harder than a Flak 40. That sounds kinda ridiculous even with the kind of shenanigans current heroes can get up to.
I'm not seeing a problem with this. :P

Though, if it is a bit broken, maybe a fix would be that Lightweight and Paratrooper cannot exist together on the same unit. Then only existing air-transportable units can drop and previously non transportable units can move by plane. I'm imagining a scenario where the heroes could be used would be like a Crete scenario where you can drop in a 75mm with the paratroopers and bring in a tank to support by air once you take an airfield.

As for air defense causing OP AA: The end result would be that the AI won't attack it. If it were to be fixed, then the hero would have an air defense stat increase instead of just re-using the soft-attack stat. (or it would use either soft or hard attack, whichever is smaller). I was thinking of the hero as being a small AA battery attached to whichever battalion the unit represents. Its range would be over the unit only and you couldn't attack out. Similar to how bombers can't act as fighters, but they have an air attack stat for counters. Pretty much, something to just make the calculus that the AI uses for attacks make choosing that unit less optimal.
nexusno2000
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by nexusno2000 »

scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:21 pm not the same plane unless you use double attack. its unrealistic, which may be your preference, but no other targets r immune from multiple attacks by either the same unit or multiple units, other than a bomber target?
The game has planes that are balanced with a single air attack possible per ground target per turn.

If you can attack with 2. Or 3. Or whatever planes per turn, the stats of every plane must then be redesigned.

Or do you want a game about planes bombing everything to pieces?
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scorehouse
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by scorehouse »

let's see how this is addresses in Pacific War. In Order of Battle Pacific War, the current plane movement won't work
CaesarCzech
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by CaesarCzech »

nexusno2000 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:09 am
scorehouse wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 am a Hero I'd like to see for bombers, all types, is a Plus 1 movement after bombing a target. its unrealistic to have 2 or more air units not able to attack the same ground target? the plus 1 would allow a bomber to attack a target, move one hex, then the next bomber group attack. during the war, the heavy bombers would be immediately followed by Stukas attacking flushed out and now exposed targets.
Double Move. Already in the game.
even as a trait for ground units it doesnt work on aircraft but on infantry its such a joy move pioners in to support attack withdraw them to to either do another support using them 2 and then using their attack as finisher or move them into safety or with the zone of control negation trait use them to smash throught enemy ZOC

seriously throught i get why the trait doesnt work on air units. Like can you imagine it ? id be like Dresden
Panzer73
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by Panzer73 »

CaesarCzech wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:52 pm seriously throught i get why the trait doesnt work on air units. Like can you imagine it ? id be like Dresden
Double Move? It works with air units. I have used a Double Move hero with my Rudel in two of my cores (Double Attack - Lightning Attack - Ignores Entrenchment or Tank Killer). Those 50 strength bunkers don't last long when Rudel's Stuka squadron, followed by another Double Attack Stuka squadron, a Lethal Attack 21 cm artillery and a Lethal Attack Wurfrahmen 40 artillery go after them in the Yelnya Offensive or other scenarios.
sakura006
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by sakura006 »

P5138 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:44 am For me I have trouble finding units for Evasive. It's such a milquetoast trait that I roll my eyes when I get it, which is often. It's not bad, but it's not really all that good. It's just "meh."

The other traits, I tend to find uses for:

No surrender and no Retreat are good for recons (especially if you play with inefficient supply). Recons run out of fuel often, and are in the front lines a lot. If they get dogpiled, they will often be forced to surrender when they can't retreat. It allows you to be a little more aggressive while still having a safety net.

Ferocious Defender (I've never got one) would probably be good on a Bridging unit. They are often on water tiles and get entrenchment penalties when attacked.

Sixth Sense: Recon Aircraft. It's rare they accidentally hit an enemy plane when returning, but you often lose the unit when it happens. Sixth sense protects them, and is a good use of the hero slot since the planes can't really be used offensively.

As for a missing heroes, I think there should be more ones that grant unique abilities. Maybe something like:

- "Lightweight": Can be transported on aircraft.
- "Paratrooper": Can be dropped from a transport plane. (does not make unit air-transportable.)
- "Marine": Disembarking from transport vehicles doesn't spend an attack action.
- "Air Defense": Will defend against incoming air attacks, suppressing with the soft attack stat.

Straight buffs are fine, but heroes that make other units into new classes of unit are what I think are missing. Heroes like Overrun, Artillery Support, and Vigilant totally transform units. More of those would be great. They also are a little bit less universally useful than straight buffs, which I think is more interesting.

Also an equivalent of Field Repairs for aircraft, as has already been said. It would really help with all the rare, limited aircraft drops in the AO.
A tip for evasive. Evasive alone does not do much, it gives enemy 10% less base accuracy which is pretty lame. However, evasive linearly stacks with low profile. Together with low profile, enemy gets 30 less base accuracy. Now this is something different. If you play at normal difficulty, enemy base accuracy is 50. If your unit is already 5 star, enemy get 20 base accuracy penalty. Together with the evasive + low profile, enemy accuracy becomes 0. This means, enemy can't deal any damage to your unit under any circumstances. Now, for a more common scenario, if you play at the highest difficulty. A 2 star enemy unit attacks your 5 star unit, with evasive + low profile, enemy accuracy is reduced from 70 to 40. This is about 40% damage reduction. Remember you do get a special infantry hero with low profile? I pair him with evasive, and I never have to worry about being killed even a t34 attacks my infantry on an open terrain.
CaesarCzech
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by CaesarCzech »

Panzer73 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:51 pm
CaesarCzech wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:52 pm seriously throught i get why the trait doesnt work on air units. Like can you imagine it ? id be like Dresden
Double Move? It works with air units. I have used a Double Move hero with my Rudel in two of my cores (Double Attack - Lightning Attack - Ignores Entrenchment or Tank Killer). Those 50 strength bunkers don't last long when Rudel's Stuka squadron, followed by another Double Attack Stuka squadron, a Lethal Attack 21 cm artillery and a Lethal Attack Wurfrahmen 40 artillery go after them in the Yelnya Offensive or other scenarios.
Eh i meant phased movement trait from general traits
Scrapulous
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by Scrapulous »

I'm revisiting this thread to add my latest nomination for the Hall of Shame: Resilient. This hero's trait prevents the unit from losing more than half of it's strength in a single combat. Sounds ok, but in practice I find it useless, and I am absolutely swimming in them in my current grand campaign.

Part of the problem I see is that it's rare to see one of my own units lose more than half of its strength in a single combat. I can't actually recall it ever happening, although it must have. But when it happens, it's likely to be from a positioning flaw that lets one enemy unit through my screens to my rear lines, which is rare and not usually a catastrophe. The difference here between losing 7 of 10 strength points and losing only 5 of 10 strength points is meaningless. Furthermore, the hero only gets weaker the more strength the unit has. For a 20 strength unit, the hero doesn't do anything unless it's getting crushed for 10 strength points in a single combat.

Has anybody found a use for this hero?
adiekmann
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by adiekmann »

Scrapulous wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:18 pm I'm revisiting this thread to add my latest nomination for the Hall of Shame: Resilient. This hero's trait prevents the unit from losing more than half of it's strength in a single combat. Sounds ok, but in practice I find it useless, and I am absolutely swimming in them in my current grand campaign.

Part of the problem I see is that it's rare to see one of my own units lose more than half of its strength in a single combat. I can't actually recall it ever happening, although it must have. But when it happens, it's likely to be from a positioning flaw that lets one enemy unit through my screens to my rear lines, which is rare and not usually a catastrophe. The difference here between losing 7 of 10 strength points and losing only 5 of 10 strength points is meaningless. Furthermore, the hero only gets weaker the more strength the unit has. For a 20 strength unit, the hero doesn't do anything unless it's getting crushed for 10 strength points in a single combat.

Has anybody found a use for this hero?
No, not really. What you describe is basically my experience too. It really only works on a stronger unit, say a good tank, that isn't going to really be in the kind of situation where it benefits from it anyway. It actually strings out the final loses on a Recon unit, where I usually put it, but that's only if the AI can't get enough units nearby to finish it off. What I usually do, is I combine it with Evasive, No Surrender, and something else like Liberator, Sixth Sense, or Prudent. They work pretty well when all of them are taken into consideration. There are many Heroes that are of rather limited value all by themselves, but better when combined with others.
adiekmann
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Re: Most worthless hero and One That's Sorely Missing

Post by adiekmann »

I have followed others advice earlier in this thread...and I still hate First Aid!
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