A look at the new Limited Stock feature

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Edmon
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Edmon »

Snake97644 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:48 pm
Trepko wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:29 pm Quick question: does your stock go with you from a campaign to the next one ?
If I finish AO39 with 30 PzIIC, will they be there in the 1st scenario of AO40 ? Or are the stocks completely reset to 0 between campaign ? (of course, in the case of an imported core)
Good question, that would make a big difference. More incentive to rotate units into reserve to let the stock build for the next campaign season.
They should carry over, as long as you keep limited stock enabled.
terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

Stalingrad - Massengrab

With a Limited Stock of 20 I am currently in the battle of Stalingrad of the basic campaign(turn 16/35), I have almost exhausted all my infantry reserves :

Stalingrad.jpg
Stalingrad.jpg (230.85 KiB) Viewed 4084 times
calmhatchery
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by calmhatchery »

I agree. I love the limited stock option but. I think that the base troops like infantry should have a little more points than elite formations like Falschmijager, gebigsjager and sturm pioniere...Devs could change a balance betweens simple base wechrmacht and another infantry special units..
Tassadar
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Tassadar »

Interesting how Azul Infanterie in AO becomes even more valuable due to this as it's not a "normal" unit and thus has unlimited supply.
Panzer73
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Panzer73 »

I'm just trying this new mode out, starting my fifth core @ SCW. My initial observation is that the same setting for vehicles and infantry doesn't mix well...

1) Infantry take a lot of damage. 0 experience Italian infantry take a lot more damage than my 5 star infantry at the end of 1942... So I run out of Italian infantry very quickly, even when I don't use them much... And as auxiliary units don't carry from scenario to scenario, I need to be very careful. Italian cavalry became useful... I used up 30 infantry replacements in just Antiquera.

2) In contrast, a setting of 30 is waaaaay!!!!! too much for tanks, planes (even the miserable German fighters at the start of SCW) and other equipment. Considering that I can make a captured / prototype unit with 35 parts last at least one DLC under normal circumstances (more for a support unit or using a Field Repairs hero), that isn't surprising...

It would be nice if the setting applied to infantry with a 1.5x multiplier ... Lets see how I fare when I move on to AO'39.
DefiantXYX
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by DefiantXYX »

Since the Campaign gets really boring, talking about the difficulty, I enabled David vs. Goliath and hero showdown (or how is it called?!) in 1942.
I am actually running out of Tiger and Tiger(P) Tanks in the stalingrad scenarios, but they are prototypes. All the other stuff is almost unlimited. Even if you run out of PIVG you can go to PIVF2 with almost the same stats.
If you dont punish yourself, by picking stupid generals traits or enabeling extra stuff for the AI, the limited stock features gets more and more meaningless. Maybe there should be some tweaking, like a shared pool for PIII and PIV?! Normally you get 20 units, but you only get 10 for each model...
terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

terminator wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 am Stalingrad - Massengrab

With a Limited Stock of 20 I am currently in the battle of Stalingrad of the basic campaign(turn 16/35), I have almost exhausted all my infantry reserves :
Finally I managed to obtain a victory at stalingrad by exhausting almost all my infantry reserves :

Stalingrad(2).jpg
Stalingrad(2).jpg (164.89 KiB) Viewed 3970 times

I had to use vehicles in stalingrad, not the ideal :

Stalingrad(3).jpg
Stalingrad(3).jpg (918.71 KiB) Viewed 3970 times

Will I arrive now to escape from Stalingrad ?
Edmon
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Edmon »

terminator wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:50 am
terminator wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 am Stalingrad - Massengrab

With a Limited Stock of 20 I am currently in the battle of Stalingrad of the basic campaign(turn 16/35), I have almost exhausted all my infantry reserves :
Finally I managed to obtain a victory at stalingrad by exhausting almost all my infantry reserves :


Stalingrad(2).jpg


I had to use vehicles in stalingrad, not the ideal :


Stalingrad(3).jpg


Will I arrive now to escape from Stalingrad ?
This actually has a real war vibe to it. A brutal campaign with almost all the frontline men lost, the men of the artillery and tank divisions are now without support and struggling to survive...
terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

I am in the Main Campaign (Karkhov 43 after the disaster of Stalingrad). Limited Stock is set to 20. Paradoxically the problem is not with vehicles but with the infantry. I must constantly manage the infantry stock, it’s starting to annoy me. With the other types of units(tanks...), I can manage and it seems interesting.
I am leading the assault on Karkhov and I lack infantry... I can no longer reinforce infantry units on the battlefield, I have to call another type of auxillary infantry unit. I hope to remove this option at the end of the scenario to continue more quietly (?)

Karkhov43.jpg
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Edmon
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Edmon »

I don't believe it is possible to remove it once it's added, at the moment.

Something I will look into asking for, though.


If you are struggling with infantry losses, here are some ideas:
1) Motorbike Recon count as infantry and can go to 15 strength for 4 slots.
2) Stratbombing + Flametanks will clear infantry for minimal losses, with steam roller they won't take damage as long as they kill the target. Once again OS is powerful here.
3) Cheap, old tanks can be used for infantry clearance. Once again apply artillery / strat bombing first but just accept that these old tanks are going to get minced to get the job done. Even very cheap, very old tanks can be very effective against infantry.
terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

Edmon wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:36 am If you are struggling with infantry losses, here are some ideas:
1) Motorbike Recon count as infantry and can go to 15 strength for 4 slots.
2) Stratbombing + Flametanks will clear infantry for minimal losses, with steam roller they won't take damage as long as they kill the target. Once again OS is powerful here.
3) Cheap, old tanks can be used for infantry clearance. Once again apply artillery / strat bombing first but just accept that these old tanks are going to get minced to get the job done. Even very cheap, very old tanks can be very effective against infantry.
Thanks for the tips but the infantry entrenched in the city remains difficult to destroy.

PS: Motorbike Recon only needs 2 slots.
terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

One of the disadvantages with the infantry is that the old models disappear to be replaced by the new ones (models 43).
Example in Karkhov 43 deployment phase (Main Campaign) :

Karkhov 43.png
Karkhov 43.png (702.52 KiB) Viewed 3784 times
Tassadar
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Tassadar »

terminator wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:43 am One of the disadvantages with the infantry is that the old models disappear to be replaced by the new ones (models 43).
Example in Karkhov 43 deployment phase (Main Campaign) :

Karkhov 43.png
Does the same happen with other obsolete units? On thing that would make this mode even more interesting would be if the old unit pool remained available, it would just not get any new parts. Quite flavorful for vehicles especially considering how late war Germans used even old stuff if they had it available.
Edmon
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Edmon »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:29 am
terminator wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:43 am One of the disadvantages with the infantry is that the old models disappear to be replaced by the new ones (models 43).
Example in Karkhov 43 deployment phase (Main Campaign) :

Karkhov 43.png
Does the same happen with other obsolete units? On thing that would make this mode even more interesting would be if the old unit pool remained available, it would just not get any new parts. Quite flavorful for vehicles especially considering how late war Germans used even old stuff if they had it available.
The old models should persist, for everything. You should need to "use" things for them to disappear / run out.
Edmon
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by Edmon »

terminator wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:09 am
Edmon wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:36 am If you are struggling with infantry losses, here are some ideas:
1) Motorbike Recon count as infantry and can go to 15 strength for 4 slots.
2) Stratbombing + Flametanks will clear infantry for minimal losses, with steam roller they won't take damage as long as they kill the target. Once again OS is powerful here.
3) Cheap, old tanks can be used for infantry clearance. Once again apply artillery / strat bombing first but just accept that these old tanks are going to get minced to get the job done. Even very cheap, very old tanks can be very effective against infantry.
Thanks for the tips but the infantry entrenched in the city remains difficult to destroy.

PS: Motorbike Recon only needs 2 slots.
Motorbike recon is 4 slots for 15 strength. It is 2 slots for 10 strength because it is tank-sized not infantry sized.
DefiantXYX
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by DefiantXYX »

Tassadar wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:29 am Does the same happen with other obsolete units? On thing that would make this mode even more interesting would be if the old unit pool remained available, it would just not get any new parts. Quite flavorful for vehicles especially considering how late war Germans used even old stuff if they had it available.
Unfortunately not. >1943 I got hundreds of tank models I dont need. I keep removing old models but they always come back. That doesnt even make sense, I am quite sure 1943 no more Panzer II were produced :) One more argument for a user controlled limited stock. You get 100 "tank points" for a scenario and you have to decide If you want 20 Tiger oder 100 Panzer III for example.

Right now I am playing the original campgain with limited stock on generallismus. The feature has almost no effect, since I dont have any prestige for repairs. Doesnt matter if you have 20 tiger tanks or 100, you simply wont have the prestige to use them all or restore your units during a scenario. Later the featue doesnt matter since it almost makes no difference if you supply a panther D, A or G. Like I said before, there should be at least a shared pool for specific units.

It's a great feature, but it doenst work for some playstyles.
rgreat
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by rgreat »

Yeah, great feature, but really undercooked.

1: not all unit stocks are replenished after mission. (viewtopic.php?f=464&t=107932)
2: +20 for any unit is very unbalanced, due to very different expected losses of these.

Already posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=464&t=107615&start=20
Stock amount must be cost and rarity based, so you would get a lot of basic infantry and other cheap and older units, but very limited amount of new and cutting edge units.

So, something along the lines:

[Unit Stock amount] = [Some Unit Type Based Constant] * [Value Based of Number of Months Since First Appearance] / [Unit Cost].
Even a rough rebalance will be useful.
For example:
Basic Infantry: x5
Specialist Infantry: x2
Light Tanks: x2
Medium Tanks: x1.5
Heavy Tanks: x1
AT Guns: x1
AA Guns: x1
Small Artillery: x1.5
Large Artillery: x1
Fighters: x1.5
Tactical Bombers: x1.5
Strategic Bombers: x1

Also, maximum limit of stock should be ~~~ 2-5 times of the numbers above.
Please consider a change.
rgreat
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by rgreat »

terminator
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by terminator »

Because of the problems I have with the Infantry, I created a mod that removes the availability limits of the first Infantry units.
Here is the result if we start the main campaign in Kursk :

Infanerie - Königin aller Waffen.jpg
Infanerie - Königin aller Waffen.jpg (315.31 KiB) Viewed 3567 times
robman
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Re: A look at the new Limited Stock feature

Post by robman »

I enjoyed playing with this setting for vehicles, but for infantry not so much—even with a relatively small number of engineers, I started running out by Moscow. The option as currently implemented makes more sense for vehicles, since they must be individually manufactured—though as noted by others above, not all vehicles were produced in comparable numbers. For infantry, where the real world bottleneck is more training than manufacturing, perhaps a better solution would be a cap on elite reinforcements, rather than reinforcements per se.

Ultimately, I think a better solution is core slot cost. Engineers should be more expensive, period, and the cost of vehicles should vary with time: initially more expensive, then dropping as the type is mass produced or becomes obsolete.
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