I am quite pesimistic about this game...

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kondi754
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by kondi754 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:28 am

The biggest problem is that PzC fans expect that all other games will be similar. OoB is a completely different game and make me laugh these complaints.
Of course OoB has his disadvantages but it also has a large group of enthusiast.
Personally, I never had any technical problems with OoB but you need to invest a little bit in a good computer. :wink:

When it comes to 3D technology is nothing you can do, the world is heading in such a direction.
I have a suggestion - create a personal project and cultivate PzC 2D if you don't want to spend money on new equipment. Anyway, I think that this happens, and the fans will take care of further development of the old PZC in 2D.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:56 am

3D is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad mmmmmmkey? ;)

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by kondi754 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:20 pm

Musketeer wrote:3D is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad mmmmmmkey? ;)
I don't understand what the question is - of course, if this question is addressed to me.
You know I'm a man of middle age, and I don't get young people jokes. :)

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Ha! Tomorrow got 39 yers :/ Man oh man!

kondi754
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by kondi754 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:00 pm

Therefore a happy birthday!
I wish you like a new PZC even more like an old one! :wink:

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:07 pm

Thanks man, but darn work it ahead looks - today and tomorrow too :/. Got PC Gold cca month ago so I am definitely set for some time ;).

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by turn4441 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:32 pm

I'm also pessimistic, but for a different reason. I don't want it to make PC irrelevant or no longer enjoyable by comparison. Hopefully, while similar and improving on various aspects, it will be sufficiently different that it doesn't make PC obsolete.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:37 pm

That is last thing I am afraid about - I got enough planned strategies/tactics for next cca 138 incarnations... ;) Many great strategies on GOG etc.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Hansstory » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:03 pm

KeldorKatarn wrote:Honestly ARMOR FACING issues are the very LAST thing I want to see. This game has Armor Bataillons, not individual tanks. The game shouldn't go down to the tactical platoon level where we're commanding individual tanks. That's what Combat Mission is for. This should remain a game of high level operational moves where you command anything form a division to a full Panzer Corps (hence the name). I don't see how you can get a side shot at a bataillon.
A regiment, or a brigade or a division or a corps can't be flanked? Attacked from behind? Maybe we should just change the term from armor facing to being FLANKED and or attacked from BEHIND? Make more sense to you?

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Sourdust » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:23 am

KelderKatarn, I agree with every word you've written. Thanks for that. I hope devs listen to your well-reasoned post... alas it looks like the engine, 3D choice etc are all locked in.

I can't speak for other gamers and I am not an expert on the market and all it's various gaming niches.

All I can say is that I find the games I really enjoy and play a lot are generally clever, well-designed indie game, not blockbuster productions. I got duped into getting Civ VI and I regret the purchase; the mechanics and AI are rubbish, and I never play it now. By contrast, my go-to games right now are Desktop Dungeons, Card Hunter, Unity of Command, Decisive Campaigns series, Panzer Corps, Mini Metro, Sunless Sea ... all relatively streamlined, well-crafted, 2D productions. I can't get into anything Paradox at the moment, all too overblown.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by KeldorKatarn » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:42 am

Regarding some posts here... nobody critisized OOB for its gameplay or just for the fact that it was 3D. It's critisized for the fact that the move to 3D caused it's engine to have MASSIVELY bad performance, stutter, crashed, had all sorts of problems and had repetitive combat animations that nobody needed. And on top of that IMO it looked like crap compared to what modern 2D games can look like at much better performance. it's a simple fact that optimizing 3D is much harder than optimizing 2D. THe latter is not trivial but it has less pitfalls and it's also much easier to get a consistent and good looking art style while in 3D you almost always need a lighting expert to make it look really good.
I love OOB for some of it's gameplay mechanics and I hope especially the naval mechanics are used in PzC2 because they're really good. Some other decisions on that game were crap but that's not what's being critisized here. It's about the performance and the mediocre look compared to what it demands from the machine it runs on.

As for armor facing or flanking... Of course a bataillon can be flanked. And we already have that in the game. it's called mass attack bonus. Can an bataillon that is UNENGAGED be flanked? No it cannot. Unless the leader of that unit is a complete idiot. March and combat formations are made so you can react to any attack from any direction. military flanking maneuevers are performed on units that are already engaged and pinned and can no longer re-arrange. YOu cannot flank a unit that is non engaged unless they're on the march in really really bad terrain and you manage to ambush them. Both ambushes AND mass attack are already in the game. Direction of attack should NOT play any role in this game. We're talking about turns that take days, hexes that span dozens of kilometers. That's not a quick flanking maneuver. Any flanking maneuver on this scale in on the operational level like the Sichelschnitt Manstein Plan or such. That one can be implemented by havign some better representation of supply lines, making road junctions and rail networks more important.
The rest is already in the game, if you want to flank tactically, play World of Tanks or Combat Mission. on this scale it simply doesn't make sense.

Also nobody here is afraid of 3D. I play tons of 3D games and I certainly don't want The WItcher 3 to be a 2D game. howver there's proper technology and proper tools for each job. Board stategy wargames are simple the ideal 2D game and there is literally NOTHING that 3D adds to their playability. You can easily improve the graphics and even make that look 3Dish with 2D sprites by simply adding normals information to the sprite and TADA you can run the same lighting shaders on them that you normally would run on a mesh. But the 2D sprite is prerendered and can have MUCH higher graphics fidelity and detail than a Mesh at much lower performance cost and much higher modability.

When games like these, which traditionally have very small development teams (it still seems like Rudankort is the only developer) and very small art teams and a large modding community, move to 3D it's always a desaster. The end result looks like crap because the team is not big enough and the budget is not there to create a graphical fidelity that's expected of a moden 3D game, the game runs like crap because the dev cannot focus on AI, all features AND optimization for all platforms and in the end a ton of money and work hours are wasted on something that adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay and the game end up flopping.

This has happened so many times in the industry that it alwys amazed me when a studio or team goes down that road yet again. The argument that a 2D game will be dismissed is quite frankly retarded. These days players can't even distinguish 2D from 3D because there's tons of tricks that devs use these days to make one look like the other. There's sidescrollers that look 2D but are in fact 3D with an orthogonal camera, there's 2Dish games like Pillars of Eternity that look 3D because they make very clever use of sprites with normal information.

it's also a clear fact that 3D games look like ass after a couple of years while 2D games hold up very nicely due to the fact that their sprites have such high fidelity that they look great no matter how old they are as long as they come from a time where sprites already had full 32bit colors available.

Just look at Panzer General 1 these days. It looks old but still good. Look at Panzer General 3D and tell me you don't get eye cancer looking at that. 3D is not simply good for everything. It has its place just like 2D and wargames that are based on board game mechanics are simply never a good candidate for 3D and they never will be at any point in the future. It's pointless, it doesn't add anything. Can you make it still work? Sure. If you have the time, team size and money to not at the same time have to cut down on everything else. I seriously have no idea how a game with the small team size and budget that this will have is supposed to pull that off and at the same time be modder friendly.

I'll be happily surprised if it turns out great and I'll be the first one praising it on my Youtube Channel. But right now I couldn't be more worried. Nearly all technology decisions I've heard so far sound like absolutely the wrong ones to make.
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Sourdust » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:55 am

For heaven's sake, get KelderKatarn on your developer team!

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by nikivdd » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:41 am

kondi754 wrote:The biggest problem is that PzC fans expect that all other games will be similar. OoB is a completely different game and make me laugh these complaints.
Of course OoB has his disadvantages but it also has a large group of enthusiast.
Personally, I never had any technical problems with OoB but you need to invest a little bit in a good computer. :wink:

When it comes to 3D technology is nothing you can do, the world is heading in such a direction.
I have a suggestion - create a personal project and cultivate PzC 2D if you don't want to spend money on new equipment. Anyway, I think that this happens, and the fans will take care of further development of the old PZC in 2D.
Everyone can notice that OOB still has a long way to go in number of posts and especially mods when compared to Panzer Corps. I can only guess why the reasons of the latter might be.
I have a decent machine, 12 GB RAM and a 4 GB Nvidia card and still those AI turns drive me nuts. I tried hard but in the end i ran out of patience. At least in PzC things move forward quickly and i remain submerged in the atmosphere of the game.

I have my reservations about 3D but i can only form an opinion the day i see screenshots and the game installed on my device. For now i give the dev team all benefits of the doubt.
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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by kondi754 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:26 am

nikivdd wrote:
kondi754 wrote:The biggest problem is that PzC fans expect that all other games will be similar. OoB is a completely different game and make me laugh these complaints.
Of course OoB has his disadvantages but it also has a large group of enthusiast.
Personally, I never had any technical problems with OoB but you need to invest a little bit in a good computer. :wink:

When it comes to 3D technology is nothing you can do, the world is heading in such a direction.
I have a suggestion - create a personal project and cultivate PzC 2D if you don't want to spend money on new equipment. Anyway, I think that this happens, and the fans will take care of further development of the old PZC in 2D.
Everyone can notice that OOB still has a long way to go in number of posts and especially mods when compared to Panzer Corps. I can only guess why the reasons of the latter might be.
I have a decent machine, 12 GB RAM and a 4 GB Nvidia card and still those AI turns drive me nuts. I tried hard but in the end i ran out of patience. At least in PzC things move forward quickly and i remain submerged in the atmosphere of the game.

I have my reservations about 3D but i can only form an opinion the day i see screenshots and the game installed on my device. For now i give the dev team all benefits of the doubt.
But I recognize the PzC as a fantastic game, perfectly optimized and extremely playable - In fact, without errors - but this project came to the wall.
OOB is a flawed game, but I love this game despite of it. :D
Incredible gameplay and a huge development opportunities are much more important to me than any disadvantages.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by rubyjuno » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:28 am

I gave up after several scenarios on OOB mainly because of the cartoon graphics, especially the annoying red supply line - it ruined any illusion of a battlefield to me.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by colberki » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:26 pm

Panzer General 3D was a sad end to the original SSI series. Let's not head there. Too bad we have gone so far away from the original Panzer General.

Panzer Korps campaign design was areal turnoff, forced to play 1939-45 with endless add ons. The original Panzer Korps campaign was crimped. I would have paid 2X full price for a modern version of the original Panzer General with 3-4 FULL branching campaigns. This time I wont buy in a hurry. Latest Strategic Command is already a major disappointment.

Hurrah to CEAW and GG WITE and WITW.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:45 pm

In such 3D hardcore circumstances it seems strange they do super game in 1-2 year with such relatively small team yet most will work on 3D graphics? Again agree with KelderKatarn to da point! I am on game market too long not to see history repeated itself!

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Yrfin » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:12 pm

Musketeer wrote:In such 3D hardcore circumstances it seems strange they do super game in 1-2 year with such relatively small team yet most will work on 3D graphics?
Devteam which can't fix "submarine" trait, trying to make super-uber 3D game, you mean ?
Shoot first. Ask questions later.

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Musketeer » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Yrfin wrote:
Musketeer wrote:In such 3D hardcore circumstances it seems strange they do super game in 1-2 year with such relatively small team yet most will work on 3D graphics?
Devteam which can't fix "submarine" trait, trying to make super-uber 3D game, you mean ?
Kindda and sortta! ;) Lads, gents and chums! I WANT to believe PC2 will be kick ass strategy, but I am in game genre to long to be overly optimistic... :idea: :?

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Re: I am quite pesimistic about this game...

Post by Rudankort » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Thanks for your pessimism guys, keep it coming. It motivates me even more to make a great game and prove you all wrong. :)

Special thanks to KeldorKatarn for insightful posts. I don't agree with certain points, but at least you've supported your position with arguments. I'll try to reply in more detail later.

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